Gabriel:

I think the thing implied here is that i'm being elitist for saying
> what I said. But let me tell you what I was thinking when I wrote the bit
> from my post that you quote:

I certainly did not mean to imply that you were being elitist. Nor did I
even think you were.  I was responding more to an optimism that I no longer
have regarding education. I think many or most people arrive at opinions
based on somethings deeply personal, somethings that they often don't even
know are controlling their beliefs (i.e. reacting for or against what the
powerful people of their childhood believed) I think maybe that is why
"grown ups" rarely change their minds about polital issues.

I live in the United States, and I know what you mean about AM radio and
most of its listeners. They often sound to me like they feel insecure about
their opinions and are looking for back up in the rhetoric of Rush
Limbaugh, et al. Maybe that is behind the susceptibility to propoganda,
they are hearing what they want to believe.

Regards,
Sarah

As soon
Seek roses in December, ice in June,
Hope constancy in wind, or corn in chaff,
Believe a woman or an epitaph,
Or any other thing that's false, before
You trust in critics.

---Lord Byron


> [Original Message]
> From: Gabriel Gudding <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: 4/4/2003 1:38:11 PM
> Subject: Re: DO NOT STOP PROTESTING
>
> Sarah, I know you're comments below are meant to be general ones, but
> couldn't help responding to what you say here, because what you say seems
> to be based, at least in part, on a snippet taken from my post. And I
> wanted to let you know that I agree with you in part. But wanted to
respond
> because I think the thing implied here is that i'm being elitist for
saying
> what I said. But let me tell you what I was thinking when I wrote the bit
> from my post that you quote:
>
> I have this habit of listening to AM talk radio here in America (not sure
> where you're located). It tends to be very right wing stuff. And I have
> heard over the past six weeks all kinds of strange and violent and
> xenophobic allegations against the French, the Germans, the Chinese and
> others. I've heard callers who think that Hussein had something to do with
> 911; callers who advocate torture against terrorists and SUSPECTED
> terrorists; who talk of gibbeting Hussein; who are more or less "ho hum"
> about the death of Iraqi children (one guy said, "hey it's war: some
> civilians get killed; get over it!"); who say that to disagree with the
> American president is treasonous, that anyone who protests the war should
> be shot in the head, etc. And the people who say this stuff generally
don't
> *seem* (and that's a big seem, but it's near as I can tell) to have read
or
> thought about the 1st amendment to the US constitution, can't seem to
> "read" the tv news broadcasts to figure out what's propagandistic fudge
and
> what's speculation and what's something that's plausible, and -- and this
> is the kicker for me -- when they are talking about how they experience
the
> war via media, they only mention tv and radio. None of them -- or few of
> them -- ever mention print journals, newspapers, magazines, or online
> journals, newspapers or magazines -- and no one mentions media external to
> the US. The rare brave caller who Does call into these polemical angry
> shows to oppose the war is someone generally who brings up outside
sources,
> who knows something of hte history of US interests in the middle east, who
> might have read about the doctrine of containment versus the doctrine of
> preemption and understand what a destabilizing and arrogant idea
preemptive
> attack is, who might mention the use of hte words "coalition forces" as a
> rhetorical ploy perpetrated by teh Bush administrations showing an ability
> to parse or understand and to articulate that understanding, and who might
> be able to see the ironies of demanding that we suppress democratic
> freedoms in the US like the freedom to peaceably assemble or to speak
> freely or to freely criticize the government, doing so in order to force
> democratic values on another culture, or to see the irony of violating a
UN
> security council resolution in order to uphold another one (one that suits
> us).  And all these analytical skills, in my experience, are generally
> found among people who like to read, or who have had some higher
education.
> Not necessarily but these skills of analyzing and being tolerant before a
> complex situation are things I've seen among people who've read a lot -
and
> not just "educated" people. That's all I was saying. I wasn't making an
> argument that people who support the war are dumb. I was however saying
> htat those who do support the war seem to me to be more susceptible to
> propaganda than those who don't.
>
> Gabe
>
> At 07:24 PM 4/3/2003 -0500, Sarah Peters wrote:
> > > > Gabriel Gudding wrote:
> > > > >Generally speaking, I think the more one reads, the more education
one
> >has,
> > > > >the less likely one is to support something like this, this
massively
> >evil
> > > > >and wrongheaded and utterly fucking stupid action.
> > > >
> >
> >As mentioned, I realize these comments were meant to be general ones:
> >How I  wish they  were true. Well-read and humanitarian are two very
> >different things.
> >
> >For instance, as I have just read in April's Atlantic Monthly, Adolph
> >Hitler read books obsessively, annotating each one. Although, most were
> >destroyed by the Russians, at least 10,080 were recovered and are housed
in
> >the U.S. Library of Congress and Brown University. They span varied
> >subjects from The Words of Jesus to Vegetarian Cooking; art and history.
> >His personal secretary described him as "reading constantly".
> >
> >I believe writers especially tend to ascribe qualities like goodness and
> >kindness to intelligent (well read) people. I've worked at universities
and
> >publishing houses. I did not see much kindness or goodness. Intellectuals
> >talk a good game, but most seem to me cruel in their behavior and driven
by
> >insecurity, like most people.
> >
> >Sarah