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POETRYETC 2003

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Subject:

Re: latest

From:

Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 8 Nov 2003 13:33:02 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (68 lines)

A couple of quick thoughts. First, what one means by "nazi." All Aryan kids
belonged to Hitler Youth, and almost all who were adolescents or a little
older helped build the autobahns, in which experience they were away from
home for extended periods in what constituted a long, narrow nazi camp.
There were no choices about these activities that weren't extremely
dangerous. I've known a lot of Germans and Austrians, bioth in the US and
on their home ground, who were involved in these. All bureaucrats, however
petty, and all in the military, repeatedly swore their allegiance, and that
allegiance was more stringently inspected and enforced the higher one's
position. The ex-officers I've known claim not to have been party members,
but they certainly were very careful about what they said and what they did.
None of my acquaintances and friends among these groups expressed shame and
guilt for moments of kindness, tho of course they may have felt shame and
guilt at the time (more likely, I would think, among those say 10 or
younger in 1933). What I have frequently heard, and I do discuss this with
them on occasion, is shame and guilt for not having done more, coupled with
an awareness that there was little more they could have done without
exposing themselves to danger. Shame and guilt for having been afraid, or
unable, to do more. I'd suggest that this is more plausible than guilt for
failing to live up to the governing ideology.
Except for the fear this is a familiar enough experience not to need a lot
of explanation. Yesterday I was in Tijuana. When I gave money to on of the
swarm of destitute women begging on the street with their destitute
children I wasn't filled with warmth because of my giving, I felt shame and
guilt about not being able, or willing, to do more, despite my awareness
that even a shedding of all my worldly goods would be no more than pissing
in the ocean.
Mark

At 10:51 AM 11/8/2003 -0700, you wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Pollack <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Nov 7, 2003 10:40 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: latest
I've been browsing through a book for weeks at Borders and have finally
ordered it from Amazon. Startling title: The Nazi Conscience, by
Claudia Koonz. They were in power long enough, and were rooted enough
in prevailing assumptions, that unpolitical people internalized their
creed - felt guilty when they thought or behaved liberally or
tolerantly. Quite plausible, and there's an important issue here I'm
too tired even to speculate about.
Thanks to all for this interesting discussion of Frederick's poem and
to Frederick for posting it.
I think this is interesting and probably true. I know several people
who were Nazis, one a woman who grew up in the Nazi youth corp,
another who was a woman officer in various women's camps, etc. and
I've always been struck by those conversations I've had with them,
which are mostly random and coincidental occasions like my knowing
the people themselves, by being unable to describe them as "ex-"Nazis
even though their political views and ideas are very different now,
there are still those prevailing assumptions. And when there is
some talk of the past, there's always a kind of shame and guilt
which is oddly attached to those moments when they thought
or behaved out of tolerance or kindness or liberally toward the
Jewish neighbor for instance. I've always been perplexed by
the feeling of regret, and your comment here made me realize
that it is because it is not without a mixture of shame and repentance.
The very moments that I would be glad for, suggesting that there
was something in the individual that was free at least momentarily
from that creed and the prevailing assumptions that the creed both expressed
and extended, are the very moments that are for them the most
troubling to their 'consciences' as if those moments of tolerance
were the occasion of sin.
Best,
Rebecca
Rebecca Seiferle

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