You know, I really appreciate Randolph's gentle comment to
me, & I got a laugh out of Jow Lindsay's poem, & I
understand why this debate with Mark may seem insanely
trivial to Kent & David & Mark himself, & while I think
Mark is making a mistake, I don't hold it against him
personally, I have a lot of respect for him.

On the other hand.  I DON'T think a spat like this - or
my debate with Gabriel on propaganda for that matter - are
trivial.  I'm reading a very interesting book of essays on
the legacy of Greek political development, titled *Agon,
Logo, Polis* (ed. by Johann Arnason; publ. by Steiner
Verlag, 2001).  The essays underline how important poetry
was for the expression of civic norms, & the development
of a city-centered sense of public responsibility - for
the "commonwealth" if you like.  Hesiod & Homer expressed
the ethos which led eventually to the very original
contributions to democratic civic order of the lawmaker
Solon (also a poet).

The "agon" of debate can serve as a counterweight to
personal ANTagonism : & how rhetorical maneuvers are
applied in political discussions seems to have both
poetic & ethical dimensions.

It's probably silly to yoke these high & ancient things
with a poetry list catfight; but poetry often turns on
the small HOW of saying.  So I will continue to criticize
Mark's rhetorical conflict of interest; & I will continue
to criticize Gabriel's propagandizing.

With respect to that, & responding to Chris Jones:  it is
true that no one can stand absolutely outside or superior
the sources of information we utilize for decision-making
and judgement.  Yet this argument is often used to deny
the very possibility of reportorial objectivity.  In fact
it's fashionable now to say that all reporting is
biased, ideologically-based.  But this statement is
itself self-contradictory.  When I say "All reporting
is biased,"  I am in a sense MAKING A REPORT which I am
asking to be taken as a truth.  But if all reporting is
biased, then I am simultaneously making a biased report
which I am nevertheless asking to be taken as unvarnished
truth.  In other words, my assertion is resting on
an unstated assumption that there is a common truth to
be known.

This is the assumption upon which the ethics of reporting is actually based.  The reporter attempts to provide the
"facts on the ground" - INCLUDING THE VARYING REPORTS of
witnesses & interpreters - and leaves it to the reader to
draw his or her own conclusions & make his or
her judgements.  The is the ethos of reportorial
disinterestedness - & it is grounded in that very
assumption that we all seek to know the (common) truth.

My claim that Gabriel's channeling amounts to propaganda
is grounded in this ethos.  I don't claim to lack
bias; but I do attempt to draw conclusions & make
judgements based as much as possible on disinterested
reports.  I don't deny that Gabriel has provided DIFFERENT
witnesses & interpretations, which might create the
conditions for a more educated judgement : all I am
saying is that he has not attempted to provide either
disinterested balance in his sources, or objective
evaluation OF his sources: as a result his channeling
activity to this & other lists doesn't rise above
propaganda.  An example of the propagandistic effect
is the latest channeling without comment of the claim
by Al-Jazeera to have been targeted for bombing in
Baghdad.  Gabriel neglects to provide the information
which was carried this morning from an NPR reporter in
Baghdad herself : she stated that Al-Jazeera had been
repeatedly warned NOT to set up its offices in the middle
of Iraqi government installations, & had been repeatedly
invited & given open access to offices in the hotel where
almost all the other international journalists are
located : the NPR reporter called Al-Jazeera's refusal
to move out of the danger zone "incomprehensible".  But
it CAN be interpreted as a possible attempt by Al-Jazeera
to CREATE a political & propaganda event : deliberately
exposing their journalists to attack in order to claim
victimhood & censorship.

This context was not provided by Gabriel's "flow of
information".

Henry