Dave,
I don't know you or your contexts or intent, but I have found your arguments and poems to be sexist, in my opinion, just reading them as they are. And often your reply to that comment is that you "don't mean" it, you define your intent or what you meant to say, as opposed to what you did say. There is often a deep refusal in your posts to _hear_ what the other is actually saying. Perhaps you have dozens of women friends and perhaps no woman has ever found you to be sexist or the qualities that go along with it, patronizing, condescending, dismissing what the other has to say, harrassing, etc., and if so, great, but I am not evaluating you as a person. I'm just commenting upon your posts. Even in this post, I find some elemental of sexism in your defense of yourself. For instance, when you describe this workshop
>>
there's a 20 year who has just
started coming, she was an orphan and was abused by her foster-father, she
hasn't much in the way of formal education but her raw intelligence is
striking, she is literally growing mentally by the week, and it is I who
have given her the confidence to speak out before others. Such things
bring
a joy to my heart.>>
This is a twenty year old woman, and yet you describe her as if she were a child that under your tutelage is being given the confidence to speak and the ability to grow intellectually, "and it is I who have given her the confidence to speak out before others." I find that sexist! and I say that in the context of just returning from conducting a workshop with a dozen women.
Best,
Rebecca
Rebecca Seiferle
www.thedrunkenboat.com
-------Original Message-------
From: "david.bircumshaw" <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 04/05/03 07:03 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: resignations
>
> Hi Randolph
I'm having difficulty keeping up with the volume of posts here, and now
I'm
adding to it!
Yes, it did strike me that my reaction to Rebecca's post was over-intense,
and I had already decided to assure her that no personal animosity was
meant. The context in which I saw it was that I had just come in from
running a workshop, one which I do without pay and nowadays almost
singlehandedly although its supposed to be a collective chair, but nobody
but me will take on the responsibility, and one in which I am deeply
committed to supporting women writers, there's a 20 year who has just
started coming, she was an orphan and was abused by her foster-father, she
hasn't much in the way of formal education but her raw intelligence is
striking, she is literally growing mentally by the week, and it is I who
have given her the confidence to speak out before others. Such things
bring
a joy to my heart. So coming from that to Rebecca's post took me aback a
bit.
I agree with you about invisible perception, when it was first (privately)
suggested to me that I could be sexist, which had never been said to me
before, I frantically went round women friends asking them if that were
so,
as I was very perturbed by the thought. The universal answer was 'No'. I'm
not claiming perfection for myself, if I wrote a 'Boke of the Sins of
Bircumshaw' it would be a very long manuscript indeed.
And yes to postings of poems! That is wot us needs!
All the Best
Dave
David Bircumshaw
Leicester, England
Home Page
A Chide's Alphabet
Painting Without Numbers
<a target=_blank
href="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm">http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm</a>
----- Original Message -----
From: "wildhoney" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: resignations
Dave,
I wonder is the intensity of your reaction disproportionate here. You
_had_
previously mentioned how often you examine yourself for possible instances
of sexism, which raised the question i.e. Rebecca isn't just launching
this
into the conversation out of the blue. It struck me at the time that
self-regulation may be necessary, for all of us, but may not be
sufficient,
in that if one was sexist then one's perceptions might well be tinted in
such a way as to make it invisible to oneself. Also, your response exposes
you to unkind paraphrases of the sort "how dare a mere woman accuse me of
being a sexist, when I, a man, know I'm not."
Thanks for your continued posting of poems. I'm working on a few things at
the moment and may well follow your example when the day job allows me to
get a bit further with them.
best
Randolph
----- Original Message -----
From: "david.bircumshaw" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: resignations
> Rebecca
>
> >I do think that your work is often deeply sexist, and not merely in
this
> poem which begins with the analogy of giving birth to shitting, but in
your
> previous poem that was favourably compared to Eliot's "The Hysteria,"
though
> that isn't to say that there isn't a misogynist or sexist cast to his
work,
> etc.<
>
>
> This is almost beyond belief, throughout my career as a writer I have
given
> support to women, I was busy doing that tonight, but I am not
responsible
> for Eliot's (definite) misogynism, I feel I'm being blamed for things
that
> have nothing to do with me. The point of the (deliberately) false
analogy
of
> birth to defecation was to try to say things are wrong at present, in a
big
> way. I've tried to explain that repeatedly but it seems at times my
> explanations fall on deaf ears. I detest sexism, violence, greed and
> bullying and prejudice, I can say though that sexism, for example, can
work
> in both directions. I wasn't angry before but I am now, your imputations
> really are insulting. 's ok if I get hauled up for something I have done
> wrong, but not (I feel) to be typecast in such a fashion. I notice too
that
> you pick up on the word foibles in an approving way from my post, I
wasn't
> trying to insist on such, just attempting to say the obvious: that
people
> are human, before they are status figures.
>
> As for my 'assumption of familiarity', well that's in your mind not
mine,
> but the coldness that your phrase contains evokes and implies a
rejection
of
> common humanity.
>
> I could say more but I won't.
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> David Bircumshaw
>
> Leicester, England
>
> Home Page
>
> A Chide's Alphabet
>
> Painting Without Numbers
>
> <a target=_blank
href="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm">http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm</a>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rebecca Seiferle" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 5:22 PM
> Subject: Re: resignations
>
>
> David,
>
> There's no tone of moral superiority and censorious self-righteousness
in
my
> email. Who was I censoring? I simply said that from my brief
acquaintance
> with Mark Weiss that,
>
> "I'm
> sure
> that he would have made such a claim in terms of his psychological and
> professional experience."
>
> And furthermore, my email leaves plenty of room for argument, which is
> hardly a definition of moral superiority and self-righteousness:
>
> "Which isn't to say that it can't be argued with;
> even therapists and mental health professionals can disagree,"
>
> I agree as far as the foibles of various people on the list, which is
partly
> why I posted that comment in the first place. Henry seemed to be making
a
> case that Mark Weiss should be disciplined in some way by the list
managers
> for what Henry felt was an ad hominem attack. So I added my comment,
which
> was meant more to give the benefit of the doubt to Weiss's intentions.
>
> You seem to be sore and smarting from the other discussion about your
poem,
> where you felt Alison and I cast "imputations of sexism upon your head."
I
> do think that your work is often deeply sexist, and not merely in this
poem
> which begins with the analogy of giving birth to shitting, but in your
> previous poem that was favorably compared to Eliot's "The Hysteria,"
though
> that isn't to say that there isn't a misogynist or sexist cast to his
work,
> etc. However, that doesn't mean that I view you as an enemy or disregard
> what you have to say or don't look at your work as I would anyone
else's.
I
> don't feel at war with you in any way, though I might quarrel with
various
> elements of your postings, whether poems or statements. For instance, I
> don't think sizeism explains anything. I bet I am as tall as you and I
bet
> you would still at moments 'talk down to me,' because you do here, for
> instance, this letter with its "oh heavens, Rebecca," as if we were
suddenly
> chums followed by your attacking me as self-righteous and censorious and
> morally superior, it's an assumption of over familiarity followed by an
> attack upon my character, and why? because you are upset, and what gives
you
> the right to do that?
>
> Rebecca
>
> Rebecca Seiferle
> <a target=_blank
href="http://www.thedrunkenboat.com">www.thedrunkenboat.com</a>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
> From: "david.bircumshaw" <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: 04/04/03 09:54 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: resignations
>
> >
> > Oh heavens, Rebecca, why take such a tone of moral superiority and
> censorious self-righteousness? I haven't been following this thread
> closely,
> and don't think I want to, I've never met Mark in person but I'm sure
he's
> an ok guy. This list, like any other human gathering, is bound to have
its
> quibbles, its upsets, its foibles. That's the way things go. I could
have
> claimed that I was deeply offended by the imputations of sexism that you
> and
> Alison cast upon my head, it's a matter I think hard about and I've
> realised, subsequent to some words of Alison's, that my problem actually
> is
> unconscious 'sizeism', because I am quite tall I unwittingly talk down
to
> those who are significantly smaller than me, whether male or female,
this
> I
> did to Alison, and was deeply upset at myself about it.
>
> Let's all make peace, for Gawds sake, it matters in such dark days as
> these.
>
> All the Best
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> David Bircumshaw
>
> Leicester, England
>
> Home Page
>
> A Chide's Alphabet
>
> Painting Without Numbers
>
> <a
target=_blank
>
href="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm">http://homepa
> ge.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm</a>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rebecca Seiferle" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 4:20 PM
> Subject: Re: resignations
>
>
> Yes, that's it exactly, I think. I recently met Mark Weiss at the AWP
> conference, and, from my short acquaintance with him and his views, I'm
> sure
> that he would have made such a claim in terms of his psychological and
> professional experience. Which isn't to say that it can't be argued
with;
> even therapists and mental health professionals can disagree. But I'm
sure
> that his remarks were a statement of fact based upon his psychological
> evaluation of the situation.
>
> Best,
>
> Rebecca
>
> Rebecca Seiferle
> <a target=_blank
> href="http://www.thedrunkenboat.com">www.thedrunkenboat.com</a>
> -------Original Message-------
> From: wildhoney <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: 04/04/03 05:02 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: resignations
>
> >
> > Henry,
>
> one of the reasons Mark may make such a claim is that he is such a
> professional. It's a statement of fact.
>
> best
>
> Randolph
> >
> >
>
>
|
