Re: to Rebecca's intervention

yes, it was with horror that I read if not this passage something similar in
my teens, studied what I had to study for the oral exam and forgot
everything of Plato and company. And found my philosophical satisfaction in
Nietzsche, where each reference to "woman" had a ready interpretion on my
side as the feminine and masculine side within each one of our selves, ever
present in our state of awakening. Here I am asking myself, why didn't I
face Plato with the same openness of spirit? How can a teen-ager (since it
all dates back to that period, later on I just went on reading or re-reading
what I had chosen in those days) be so exact in her (well it is me, woman)
choices, selective, and give right there the main direction to my entire
life?
That's what happened to me.
Oh yes, there is an Astrological interpretation (re my teens), I guess
nobody is interested in it, very strange how literature and poetry do not
fit with Astrology nowadays.
Care, Anny

From: "Rebecca Seiferle" <[log in to unmask]>


> Well I've read the later posts to this thread with interest, but still
want to reply here. This surely goes back to Plato's Symposium and the
concept that the beautiful is 'begotten' in the soul of the lover by
proximity to the beloved, both of them male, since women as mater/materia
were considered to be incapable of friendship (Aristotle) and are elided by
virtue of their purely physical fecundity. The Muse is a later
personification and heterosexualization of this concept of art as a
"begetting" within the male artist, though the locus changes from soul to
imagination, etc. And it historically has been used to grant these powers
only to the male artist, genius, etc.
>
> Best,
>
> Rebecca
>
> Rebecca Seiferle
> www.thedrunkenboat.com
> -------Original Message-------
> From: Alison Croggon <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: 05/05/03 01:55 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Sparrow&Spider, Poem Six
>
> >
> > At 11:55 PM -0700 5/4/03, Mark Weiss wrote:
> >Alison: I appreciate what you're saying, but I think you exaggerate some.
> >Men and women have tended to use the imagery of feminine fertility for
> all
> >sorts of things for a long time--fecund nature, for that matter Mother
> >Nature. The idea of giving birth to art is hardly dependent upon the idea
> >of the muse, nor is it necessarily theft.
>
> Well, we'll have to agree to differ on that, Mark.  I am not
> exaggerating, but it would take a book to say why.  The idea of
> giving birth to art is an idea which was seized on and used by the
> Romantics and, yes, it is closely connected to the idea of the Muse,
> and it is closely linked to the idea of the exclusively male artist.
> (The appropriation of female fertility into a male figure is much
> older than the Romantics, but I am talking about that).  I am not
> seeking a "victim" status for women.  I am trying to make clear a
> particular paradigm, which is quite specific and very well
> documented, that has been used against women poets, both in their
> lifetimes and afterwards, for some hundreds of years.  The only
> reason for it that I can see is to preserve poetry as a male province.
>
> At 11:55 PM -0700 5/4/03, Mark Weiss wrote:
> >Mary Shelley doesn't seem to have been
> >a victim of the muse. Only idiots buy the ubermensch stuff at this date,
> >and not too many of those.  Many are edited out of the picture for a time
> >or forever, for a variety of reasons or just because of dumb luck--to
> >ascribe this in the case of women to some kind of male conspiracy seems a
> >bit over the top, especially in the modern period. Muriel Rukeyser, for
> >one, never lacked for major publishers (the editors were almost
> invariably
> >male). In the wake of the early days of the feminist movement she became
> a
> >very minor celebrity--at readings (she read in various of my reading
> >series' several times in her last decade) a small group of younger women
> >>would gather around her--but she had never been invisible. Neither
> >>was I think you
> >>get my drift. I don't think any one of them worried a lot about the
> muse.
>
>
> You are of course talking about exceptional women; but let's look at
> them.  Mary Shelley was Mary Wollstonecroft's daughter, which gives
> her a rather unusual heritage for the time: she was unusually aware
> of the issues of gender.  Muriel Rukeyser is by no means listed as
> one of the "greats" of 20C American poetry (in the way for example
> Wallace Stevens or Robert Lowell or any other number of recognisable
> names are) despite the fact that the best of her poetic achievement
> places her there squarely.   It is said of Rukeyser that her poetry
> suffered because she was a single mother; I have often wondered why
> her simultaneous persecution as a communist in the McCarthy era is
> never considered as a factor in her years of silence.  If a man was
> in the same position, a sole father and a persecuted political
> activist, the focus would be on the presecution; the emphasis because
> she is a woman is to focus on her personal life and to forget to
> mention her public life.
>
> HD is considered a minor and often eccentric figure compared to her
> contemporaries and suffered from some (to say the least) harshly
> dismissive reviews from Randall Jarrell, whom I otherwise admire,
> because of the female focus of her later poetry (Trilogy and so on).
> HD was most certainly concerned with the idea of the woman poet and
> the muse.  Gertrude Stein could be admitted through the paradigm
> because she was a "masculine" woman.  Adrienne Rich (who doesn't
> compare with Rukeyser, imho, not that it's any disgrace) rose on the
> wave of feminism, and much of her work, both poetic and theoretical,
> deals with the dilemma of the female subject and its relation to the
> male gaze.
>
> Yes, men too suffer from obscurities, but not just because they are
> _men_; it is because they embrace a then unfashionable mode of
> writing, or some other thing to do with their work.  What I'm talking
> about is not a conspiracy so much as a cluster of prejudices or
> predelictions which are sadly still extant and in some places still
> dominant, and which affect both the perception of women and women's
> perception of themselves.
>
> Best
>
> A
> --
>
>
> Alison Croggon
> Editor
> Masthead Online
> <a target=_blank
>
href="http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/">http://au.geocities.com/masthead_
2/</a>
>
> Home page
> <a target=_blank
>
href="http://www.users.bigpond.com/acroggon/">http://www.users.bigpond.com/a
croggon/</a>
>
> >
>