Greta - a very good point on evidence-based practice.  When one stands back - surely what can actually be justified is (a) questions designed around risk-based health surveillance (eg asking people who will work with animals if they are allergic to animals) and (b) questions designed around the DDA.  What is the point of anything else?  Best wishes - Kate

>>> [log in to unmask] 12/07/03 11:11:32 >>>
Pre-employment questionnairesI think you are getting confused here about confidentiality. An individual can tell anyone they like what is wrong with them, their history, medical or otherwise. Only if they are told that that information would be treated as 'medical in confidence' would it have to be just that - kept in confidence by a healthcare professional.

Regarding the civil service I was just pointing out that a large UK institution which includes such things as the Lord Chancellors Department ( the British Courts System) and HSE itself have all been using this system since time immemorial ( I am not saying whether this is right or wrong - just that it happens). I am amused that you are trying to change it in the MOD for a number of reasons, but maybe you will succeed where others have failed - including HSE because it seems to work. Is this evidence based practice? What evidence is there that other systems are better? More research has been carried out on Civil Service staff than almost any other single group. The Whitehall 11 Study 2000 concluded  their research by saying that 'intervention at the level of work design, organisation and management may reduce morbidity in working populations' - there is no mention of pre-employment health assessment (unless for specific situations where health surveillance is required). 

A great deal of expensive OH professional time is spent on Pre employment - again I ask what research indicates that the end justifies the means? and I am  not talking about areas where health surveillance is either statutory or mandatory,

Greta Thornbory
Consultant, Occupational health and education
www.gtentreprises-uk.com 
Phone: 01235 770156
Mobile: 0777 815 027
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: mchardy 
  To: [log in to unmask] 
  Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 7:32 AM
  Subject: Re: Pre-employment questionnaires


  I have just caught up on all the comments/opinions/discussions re: above subject.

  I find it extremely disturbing that the practice of vetting of PEHQ by HR seems to be acceptable to some OH practitioners even if there is guidance on it within the British Civil Service as suggested by Greta.

  As far as I am aware, under current laws, should someone decide to take the breach of medical confidentiality to court, the employee would win hands down & please correct me if I'm wrong.

  Greta, for the past 4 nearly 5 yrs I work within the military & I provide a service for civil servants as well as service personnel (not as comprehensive for the civilians as it is for the servicemen & women) & I am appalled at the practice of the civil service HR & their welfare system. Prospective employees are asked to send their their completed job applications & CV as well as the completed PEHQ to HR all together. There is no mention to them that the people looking at their PEHQ are not health professionals. Not only that, but they are not even sealed & marked "medical in confidence" although it is claimed that the whole file is classed as "medical" so the staff are trained not to gossip etc. Having met & tried to work with some of the staff in HR, some have absolutely no idea about medical confidentiality or other confidentiality for that matter, discussing employees' health with managers etc etc. (Some HR staff are however very discreet). 
  I have challenged this practice at the highest level within the Ministry of Defence. As a result & with help from the Chief Civilian Nurse & Chief Medical Officer within the MOD, an alternative comprehensive policy is being looked at. There seems to be such resistance at their HR higher level that the said policy is in its 13th draft !!!!!!  
  As a result of the local unit OH not being involved in the PEHQ, many vulnerable people have been placed in jobs where their health is put at risk for e.g. the asthma sufferer in a carpentry environment or working with isocyanates.

  I have found a way of working around this at my unit level (with some resistance from the local HR) but it is still far from ideal. At least since I have been in post, any OH medical notes we create are kept within our OH Dept under correct security as in the Medical Records Act etc. I am constantly trying to find better ways of working with HR but some of the "old school" HR still resist change as they see us as meddling & encroaching on their empire!

  It is all boiling down to informing the employees of their rights and the current HR practice & should they not be happy about it, they can take it further. There are very strong grievance etc policies in place. However I am also aware that as an advocate I may not be totally fulfilling my responsibility. I continue to challenge practice!

  Sorry to have gone on a bit but I do feel very strongly about this! By the way-I fully support the competency and quality of PEHQ issues as per James B.

  Regards to all

  Maudie
  OHN Specialist

  PS I am aware that other arrangements are allowed within the law for the SME's etc who cannot afford to employ their own OH advisors

  ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Greta Thornbory 
    To: [log in to unmask] 
    Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 10:38 PM
    Subject: Re: Pre-employment questionnaires


    Paul et all the others who answered this query.

    The British Civil Service has been asking for completed PEQs to be returned to HR since time immemorial (and few civil servants sit in offices) HR have guidance notes produced by OH professionals geared towards specific job specifications and if the PEQ falls outside those guidelines it is referred to an OH professional for further consideration. It seems to work for the 600K civil servants employed at anyone time. Obviously some jobs required statutory or mandatory consideration and these are dealt with separately by the appropriate professionals. Just thought you might like to know this interesting fact. 

    As so many of you seem to be into cost benefit analysis & exercises I would be interested to find how many of you have actually carried out cost benefit exercises on PEQs - does the end justify the means?

    Greta Thornbory
    Consultant, Occupational health and education
    www.gtentreprises-uk.com 
    Phone: 01235 770156
    Mobile: 0777 815 027
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Bradley, Paul 
      To: [log in to unmask] 
      Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 3:49 PM
      Subject: Pre-employment questionnaires


      Hello all, 

      Regarding pre-employment questionnaires.  Can an employer request the prospective employee to disclose clinical information about themselves on a PEQ which then goes to HR department in the absence of a occupational health department?  Is this acceptable so long as the employer clearly states on the PEQ that the information provided and thus held will not be subject to medical confidentiality but privileged confidentiality in HR.

      Any guidance would be gratefully appreciated. 

      Cheers 

      Paul Bradley 
      Occupational Health Adviser. iSome HR staff are however very discr

      AMEC Group Ltd, Sandiway House Hartford Northwich CW8 2YA United Kingdom 
      ( 01606 881026 È 07739655392 
      ? [log in to unmask] 


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