As one of the "modern" nurses (P2000 trained) I'm intrigued by this
debate. On my course we were never "formally" taught how to change beds,
wash patients or any of the other "chores" but were strongly encouraged
to obtain what training we could out of the wards we went to. As I had
worked as a nurses aid in Ireland for many years I was more than willing
to pitch in and get on with things and I felt this experience was
invaluable in giving me the confidence to become more involved with the
more in-depth nursing. I felt that a lot of my fellow students spent so
much time getting their heads around the idea of vomit, body fluids and
actually touching the patient that their placements seemed to be taken
up with learning these skills. I left P2000 with what I feel was a well
rounded theoretical and practical knowledge base (including
intradermals) but feel that this was mainly because I went out and
sought the experience/training. I was horrified to come across students
who stated that they "weren't trained to make beds" and think that is a
huge problem with current training - no-one is checking what level of
practical experience students get or more importantly seek!
Regards
Car
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Dunn
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 08 December 2003 08:38
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
Neil, THAT is just the point I was trying to tease out of the debate.
We are in a position where nurses of my 'vintage' see this procedure as
a normal and basic nursing skill, that although taught many years ago,
gives much better evidence based knowledge when I/you/we need to update
to use it in present practice, Other of our colleagues are throwing
their hands up in horror at the thought of giving such an injection
because it is not a skill they have been taught, and they perceive it to
be an 'extension' of their basic skill base. Does not this whole
scenario cast serious doubts on the validity of modern nurse training,
whereby the profession is gradually being deskilled and losing basic
nursing knowledge at the expense of a more esoteric, managerial,
administrative and academic approach. If I was ill and in hospital I
would wish the nurse to have the skills to make me feel comfortable and
cared for. I wouldn't give two hoots if they could write a
dissertation. Nursing is about aquiring the practical skills necessary
to care for people....we must never lose sight of that, because if we do
we cease to be nurses !!
Regards, Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil & Paul" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> Robert,
> The argument is that intradermals are not taught on the basic syllabus
> at many of the universities I know. That's the issue. It is an
> extended role for want of a better phrase. It is something that many
> nurses have had NO training or competency in.
>
> Neil
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Dunn"
> <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 8:46 AM
> Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
>
>
> > Neil, thank you for not volunteering!, and thank you to everyone
> > else
> that
> > took the bait of 'proper'. For your info I am fully upto date and
> > give BCG's regularly, as do ALL my nursing staff. I do
> > wholeheartedly agree
> with
> > Greta in as much that I would not employ an nurse that would refuse
> > to
> give
> > vaccinations, and BCG's in particular. It would make the
> > administration
> of
> > the the OH service very difficult, if not impossible, if we had to
> organise
> > clinics around individual nurse likes and dislikes, especially with
> > a
> small
> > team. The point I was trying to make is that intradermal injections
> > essentially are a basic nursing skill which should not require
discussion.
> > Sadly, along with many nursing skills that made the nurse a unique
> > professional, they have been eroded to the detriment of modern
> > nursing,
(
> > incidentally, this same portfolio of basic skills is now carried out
> > now
> by
> > non-professionally accountable HCA's). Modern nurse training tends
to
> > focus on psuedo-medical, technical, administrative, academic and
> > social issues, and no longer deems it necessary that registered
> > nurses need to
be
> > equiped with what were a few years ago accepted to be the basic
practical
> > skills of nursing. The administration of Intradermal injections
are
not
> > some non-existant, outmoded 'extension of role', so where is the
argument?
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Neil & Paul" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 6:37 PM
> > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> >
> >
> > > If you haven't given an intradermal for 30 years Robert I will not
> > > let
> you
> > > practice on me - sorry
> > >
> > > Neil
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Anne Beckerton" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 2:23 PM
> > > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Well said Robert!
> > > > Anne
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Robert Dunn"
> > > > <[log in to unmask]
> > > > >
> > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 2:18 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Dear All
> > > > >
> > > > > To add fuel to this particular fire, I cannot see for the life
> > > > > of
me
> > why
> > > > any
> > > > > nurse should refuse to give an intradermal injection provided
> > > > > they
> > have
> > > > been
> > > > > given appropriate training and have been deemed competent in
> > > > > the
> > > > technique.
> > > > > When I trained as a 'proper' nurse (State Registered Nurse) 30
years
> > > ago,
> > > > > Intradermal, Subcuaneous and Intramuscular injection technique
> > > > > was
> not
> > > > > optional, it was a requirement of completion of the training,
> > > > > and
> was
> > in
> > > > > fact taught within the first 6 weeks of our nursing career in
> > > preliminary
> > > > > training school. Refusal to carry out any of them would have
> > > > > led
to
> > > > > incomplete competancy and failure of the course. Has modern
> > > > > nurse
> > > > training
> > > > > gone so far into the realms of social sciences and academia
> > > > > that a
> > basic
> > > > > skill such as intradermal injection technique is no longer
required?
> > > Any
> > > > > person (not just a nurse or physician) is able legally to give
> > > > > any injection, provided the person receiving it is aware of
> > > > > the status
> of
> > > that
> > > > > individual, and that the individual has received appropriate
> > > training.....
> > > > > it is not rocket science afterall..!!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Fields Shirley"
> > > > > <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 3:05 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I certainly wouldn't mind if any of the nurses declined to
> > > > > give,
> > > > personally
> > > > > I don't like intra dermal injections and have therefore always
> > refused.
> > > > >
> > > > > Shirley Fields
> > > > > OH Manager Burton NHS
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: diane romano woodward [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > > > Sent: 02 December 2003 15:02
> > > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > All seem to be very positive about nurses doing this. Is this
> > > > > considered to be an extended role that one can chose not
to
> > do?
> > > I
> > > > > remember opting out when working in the NHS some years ago as
> > > > > (I
> > think)
> > > it
> > > > > is possible to cause some disruption to the arm if they are
actually
> > > > immune.
> > > > > On that basis I felt it was better to let OHP take
> > > > > responsibility,
> > (they
> > > > get
> > > > > paid more..)
> > > > >
> > > > > For those of you in the NHS would you frown upon employing a
> > > > > nurse
> who
> > > > > declined to do them, as long as they could do heaf tests, Hep
> > > > > Bs
> etc?
> > > > >
> > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > > Diane
> > > > > (independent practitioner)
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Fields Shirley"
> > > > > <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 10:49 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Chris (remember me)
> > > > >
> > > > > At Burton one of our nurses is currently undergoing training
> > > > > from
> the
> > > > chest
> > > > > clinic nurse to do BCG's. There is no reason why nurses cannot
> > > > > do
> this
> > > > > procedure with adequate training.
> > > > >
> > > > > Say hi to Sally
> > > > >
> > > > > Shirley Fields
> > > > > OH Manager
> > > > > Burton NHS Trust
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Baldwin Chris (RFF) Occupational Health Nurse Advisor
> > > > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > > > Sent: 02 December 2003 10:01
> > > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > Subject: BCG Vaccinations
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Good morning everyone,
> > > > > a question particularly for NHS colleagues. Do NHS
> > > > > Occupational
> Health
> > > > > colleagues allow the vaccination to be nurse or doctor
administered?
> > > your
> > > > > comments and thoughts on this are appreciated.
> > > > >
> > > > > chris Baldwin
> > > > >
> > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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