Robert
I disagree.
What makes us "professional" nurses is the ability to progress beyond just
the physical care when necessary and the ability to analyse and use an
evidence base to progress.
Without the ability to write research papers how can we understand the ones
that others, mostly medics, have written.
I do agree that I would want to be cared for physically by people who care
and can understand my basic needs. But do we need to do 3 or more years of
training to do a bed bath or change a bed?
Surely we would be better looked after by care assistants who are given
training to care for us without being interrupted by ward rounds and such
just my humble opinion
Neil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Dunn"
<[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> Neil, THAT is just the point I was trying to tease out of the debate. We
> are in a position where nurses of my 'vintage' see this procedure as a
> normal and basic nursing skill, that although taught many years ago, gives
> much better evidence based knowledge when I/you/we need to update to use
it
> in present practice, Other of our colleagues are throwing their hands up
in
> horror at the thought of giving such an injection because it is not a
skill
> they have been taught, and they perceive it to be an 'extension' of their
> basic skill base. Does not this whole scenario cast serious doubts on the
> validity of modern nurse training, whereby the profession is gradually
being
> deskilled and losing basic nursing knowledge at the expense of a more
> esoteric, managerial, administrative and academic approach. If I was ill
> and in hospital I would wish the nurse to have the skills to make me feel
> comfortable and cared for. I wouldn't give two hoots if they could write
a
> dissertation. Nursing is about aquiring the practical skills necessary to
> care for people....we must never lose sight of that, because if we do we
> cease to be nurses !!
>
> Regards, Bob
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Neil & Paul" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 6:41 PM
> Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
>
>
> > Robert,
> > The argument is that intradermals are not taught on the basic syllabus
at
> > many of the universities I know. That's the issue. It is an extended
role
> > for want of a better phrase. It is something that many nurses have had
NO
> > training or competency in.
> >
> > Neil
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert Dunn"
> > <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 8:46 AM
> > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> >
> >
> > > Neil, thank you for not volunteering!, and thank you to everyone else
> > that
> > > took the bait of 'proper'. For your info I am fully upto date and
give
> > > BCG's regularly, as do ALL my nursing staff. I do wholeheartedly
agree
> > with
> > > Greta in as much that I would not employ an nurse that would refuse to
> > give
> > > vaccinations, and BCG's in particular. It would make the
administration
> > of
> > > the the OH service very difficult, if not impossible, if we had to
> > organise
> > > clinics around individual nurse likes and dislikes, especially with a
> > small
> > > team. The point I was trying to make is that intradermal injections
> > > essentially are a basic nursing skill which should not require
> discussion.
> > > Sadly, along with many nursing skills that made the nurse a unique
> > > professional, they have been eroded to the detriment of modern
nursing,
> (
> > > incidentally, this same portfolio of basic skills is now carried out
now
> > by
> > > non-professionally accountable HCA's). Modern nurse training tends
to
> > > focus on psuedo-medical, technical, administrative, academic and
social
> > > issues, and no longer deems it necessary that registered nurses need
to
> be
> > > equiped with what were a few years ago accepted to be the basic
> practical
> > > skills of nursing. The administration of Intradermal injections are
> not
> > > some non-existant, outmoded 'extension of role', so where is the
> argument?
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Neil & Paul" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 6:37 PM
> > > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> > >
> > >
> > > > If you haven't given an intradermal for 30 years Robert I will not
let
> > you
> > > > practice on me - sorry
> > > >
> > > > Neil
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Anne Beckerton" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 2:23 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Well said Robert!
> > > > > Anne
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Robert Dunn"
> > > > > <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 2:18 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dear All
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To add fuel to this particular fire, I cannot see for the life
of
> me
> > > why
> > > > > any
> > > > > > nurse should refuse to give an intradermal injection provided
they
> > > have
> > > > > been
> > > > > > given appropriate training and have been deemed competent in the
> > > > > technique.
> > > > > > When I trained as a 'proper' nurse (State Registered Nurse) 30
> years
> > > > ago,
> > > > > > Intradermal, Subcuaneous and Intramuscular injection technique
was
> > not
> > > > > > optional, it was a requirement of completion of the training,
and
> > was
> > > in
> > > > > > fact taught within the first 6 weeks of our nursing career in
> > > > preliminary
> > > > > > training school. Refusal to carry out any of them would have
led
> to
> > > > > > incomplete competancy and failure of the course. Has modern
nurse
> > > > > training
> > > > > > gone so far into the realms of social sciences and academia that
a
> > > basic
> > > > > > skill such as intradermal injection technique is no longer
> required?
> > > > Any
> > > > > > person (not just a nurse or physician) is able legally to give
any
> > > > > > injection, provided the person receiving it is aware of the
status
> > of
> > > > that
> > > > > > individual, and that the individual has received appropriate
> > > > training.....
> > > > > > it is not rocket science afterall..!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Fields Shirley" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 3:05 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I certainly wouldn't mind if any of the nurses declined to give,
> > > > > personally
> > > > > > I don't like intra dermal injections and have therefore always
> > > refused.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Shirley Fields
> > > > > > OH Manager Burton NHS
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: diane romano woodward [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > > > > Sent: 02 December 2003 15:02
> > > > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > All seem to be very positive about nurses doing this.
> > > > > > Is this considered to be an extended role that one can chose not
> to
> > > do?
> > > > I
> > > > > > remember opting out when working in the NHS some years ago as (I
> > > think)
> > > > it
> > > > > > is possible to cause some disruption to the arm if they are
> actually
> > > > > immune.
> > > > > > On that basis I felt it was better to let OHP take
responsibility,
> > > (they
> > > > > get
> > > > > > paid more..)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For those of you in the NHS would you frown upon employing a
nurse
> > who
> > > > > > declined to do them, as long as they could do heaf tests, Hep Bs
> > etc?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > > > Diane
> > > > > > (independent practitioner)
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Fields Shirley" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 10:49 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Chris (remember me)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At Burton one of our nurses is currently undergoing training
from
> > the
> > > > > chest
> > > > > > clinic nurse to do BCG's. There is no reason why nurses cannot
do
> > this
> > > > > > procedure with adequate training.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Say hi to Sally
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Shirley Fields
> > > > > > OH Manager
> > > > > > Burton NHS Trust
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Baldwin Chris (RFF) Occupational Health Nurse Advisor
> > > > > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > > > > Sent: 02 December 2003 10:01
> > > > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > > Subject: BCG Vaccinations
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Good morning everyone,
> > > > > > a question particularly for NHS colleagues. Do NHS Occupational
> > Health
> > > > > > colleagues allow the vaccination to be nurse or doctor
> administered?
> > > > your
> > > > > > comments and thoughts on this are appreciated.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > chris Baldwin
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > > > Please remove this footer before replying.
> > > > > > Visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html for list
> > > archives
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > > > Please remove this footer before replying.
> > > > > > Visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html for list
> > > archives
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > > > Please remove this footer before replying.
> > > > > > Visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html for list
> > > archives
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > > > Please remove this footer before replying.
> > > > > > Visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html for list
> > > archives
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > > > Please remove this footer before replying.
> > > > > > Visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html for list
> > > archives
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > > Please remove this footer before replying.
> > > > > Visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html for list
> > archives
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > Please remove this footer before replying.
> > > > Visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html for list
> archives
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > Please remove this footer before replying.
> > > Visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html for list
archives
> > >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Please remove this footer before replying.
> > Visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html for list archives
> >
> >
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Please remove this footer before replying.
> Visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html for list archives
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please remove this footer before replying.
Visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html for list archives
|