|
This discussion is very interesting to me, but unfortunately I have few facts at my fingertips. Athenian silver mining (and cupellation) at Laurium was indeed on a very large scale (employing several thousand slaves, I am told), as was Roman copper/gold mining at Rio Tinto and elsewhere in Iberia. The Romans had more interest in lead itself (rather than just as a byproduct of silver mining) than the Greeks did.
Polymetallic ores (Cu-Pb-Zn(-Ag-Mn)) ores were worked on a fairly large scale in Tuscany from about 550 BC to 200 BC. Lead was extensively mined in Sardinia. I know nothing about the scale of ancient base metal production in the Balkans and Asia Minor, except that it was large.
I was under the impression that the Romans worked the Peak for lead as well as fluorspar. A visit to Colchester Castle (among other places) will quickly give one an idea of the scale on which the Romans used lead for coffins, water pipes,etc., but I know of no-one who has estimated the annual production of the Roman empire. It may be possible to form some idea from Vitruvius: I'll check with the Vitruvius scholars I know.
I'm concerned that, using only sites in mid- to high northern latitudes, the amount of pollution might be over-estimated somewhat because the prevailing westerlies prevent it from dispersing southward: I think this has been the case with volcanic dust from Icelandic eruptions. But I'm not a meteorologist, and presumably the people who have published on the matter have factored the global circulation into their estimates.
I'd be very interested to know of anyone (book or web site) who has tried to estimate the production levels of any metals and any mining districts in ancient times.
John Berry
Automatic digest processor <[log in to unmask]> wrote:There are 17 messages totalling 935 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Toyota Landcruisers (2)
2. lead production in the Roman period (5)
3. help with terminology please
4. Re-Terminology (2)
5. Dorothea Quarry & Beam Engine (4)
6. Petrol/gasoline engines U/G
7. Dorothea Engine - More information (2)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 02:18:45 EST
From: Bernard Moore
Subject: Re: Toyota Landcruisers
Dear Keith,
As to exhaust gasses u/g, they are usually dealt with by Exhaust Scrubbers -
there are various types. Fuel treatments and additives are used as well. If
you wanted to find out more about these try a search of the I.net and
something will turn up.
Regards, Bernard.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 17:02:41 -0000
From: Tony Brooks
Subject: Toyota Landcruisers
The use of diesel vehicles like the Toyota is very common in mechanised =
mines where all the vehicles are rubber-tyred free steered diesels. =20
Almost 30 years ago, when I was in Zambia, we used diesel Peugeot 404 =
pick-ups underground for general personel and materials transport, the =
bigger materials being handled by 4 wheel drive Mercedes Unimogs. =
The Peugeots could only be used on the main ramps and haulages as they =
has no real off-road capacity. I could drive direct from my office down =
underground to the main mining areas.
We fitted simple water scrubbers ( I cannot remember if we had catalytic =
converters) to clean up the exhaust. There was no gas problem and a =
diesel produces almost no carbon monoxide. Good ventilation was the =
norm.
Tony Brooks
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 08:37:58 -0000
From: Webmaster
Subject: Re: lead production in the Roman period
I just noticed there is a discrepancy in the article, at one point it says
400 tons fell on Greenland during the 800 years of the Roman empire, yet
later on (the bit I read) it says in one year 1% of 80,000 tons (800 tons)
was deposited.
-----Original Message-----
From: mining-history [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
Webmaster
Sent: 12 March 2003 23:59
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: lead production in the Roman period
The story below is an old one I know, but it cought my eye since it states
that lead production was 80,000 tons per year around the birth of christ.
The articles seems to assume that it would take the cupilation of 80,000
tons of lead to create the 800 tons of lead deposition that has been noticed
in Greenland.
Would anyone care to guess the number of people involved in extracting that
amount of lead per year using techniques available to the Roman and other
peoples of the globe at that time? How does this compare to later lead
production levels?
Thanks
George Chaplin
ICE PACK REVEALS ROMANS' AIR POLLUTION
> Global atmospheric pollution dates back to Roman and Greek times -
long before the Industrial Revolution - according to scientists who
have detected lead fallout in samples of ancient Greenland ice.
>
> The researchers have detected small but significant quantities of
lead particles in ice cores drilled to a depth of more than a
kilometre - covering a timespan of nearly 8,000 years.
>
> They detected surges in the amount of lead - a by- product of the
process of extracting silver from lead ore - at depths corresponding
to the rise of Athens and Rome. They also found lead pollution from
medieval and Renaissance silver mines.
>
> Finding lead in ice cores represents the oldest report of
international atmospheric pollution, scientists say in today's issue
of the journal Science. "Analysis of the Greenland ice core covering
the period from 3,000 to 500 years ago - the Greek, Roman, Medieval
and Renaissance times - shows that lead is present at concentrations
four times as great as natural values from about 2,500 to 1,700 years
ago (500BC to AD300)."
>
> The researchers, led by Claude Boutron, a geologist at the Domaine
University at Grenoble in France, estimate that about 400 tons of
lead feel on the Greenland ice cap during the 800 years of the Roman
Empire.This is about 15 percent of the lead that has fallen on the
area in the past 60 years of using lead additives in petrol, they
say.
>
> Professor Clair Patterson, a geochemist at the California Institute
of Technology, in Pasadena, said the pollution came from the ancient
tradition of smelting lead ore in open furnaces in order to extract
the valuable silver. Although the process - known as cupellation -
was invented about 5,000 years ago, it was the Greeks who first
exploited it on a large scale, notably at the silver mines of Laurium
on the Aegean Sea, which financed the Greek naval victory over the
Persians.
>
> Lead smelting during Roman times was done on an even larger scale
for a much longer period. At its peak, the Romans produced airborne
lead emissions equivalent to the pollution produced at the beginning
of the Industrial Revolution 1,700 years later, Professor Patterson
said.
>
> "What we see from the ice record of the Greenland cores is that we
have been poisoning the Earth's atmosphere with lead for 2,000
years." At around the birth of Christ, silver mines were producing
about 80,000 tons of lead slag a year and at least 1 per cent of this
went into the air, he said.
>
> The scientists analysed 22 ice cores drilled to depths from between
about 300 metres to 1.3 kilometres. The deepest core corresponded to
a period 7,760 years ago, long before lead ore was smelted for
silver, which acted as a measure of background levels of lead.
>
> Professor Patterson said that the eventual depletion of the lead
and silver mines - resulting in a shortage of silver coins - led to
the decline and fall of the Roman Empire. Lead poisoning, which
results in mental deterioration, played only a minor role, he said.
>
> Steve Connor, Science Correspondent The Independent, 23 September
1994 http://www.science.uwaterloo.ca/earth/waton/icepack.html
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:36:48 +0000
From: Martin Roe
Subject: Re: lead production in the Roman period
I think that you have to be very cautious about the assumptions made by this
study. Yes they have found evidence of lead but where is the evidence to
link it to smelting activities? Is this a type of pollution which could only
come from smelting? if so where were the smelting sites. Anayisis of the
lead isotopes present could indicate where in the world this lead came from,
has such a study been done to back up their claims. I dont recall seeing any
follow up articles. These figures suggest that we should be finding
industrial scale Roman smelting sites and that there could consequently be
mining sites of a comparable size to many 19th century mines. This is not
the case.
Similar bold statemants have been made by environmental scientisits working
on river sediments who have suggested that there was large scale mining in
the Yorkshire Dales in the period following the Roman ocupation, again
without any archaeological or historical data to back up their claims.
Such bold statements attract public attention and are very useful when
trying to attract aditional funding for a research project.
Yours Cynically,
Martin Roe
Conservation Officer NAMHO
National Association of Mining History Organisations http://www.namho.org
Lead Mining in the Yorkshire Dales
http://www.mroe.freeserve.co.uk
The Industrial Heritage of Calderdale
http://www.halifaxcouriertoday.co.uk/ftpinc/calderheritage
>From: Webmaster
>Reply-To: "The mining-history list."
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: lead production in the Roman period
>Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 23:58:45 -0000
>
>The story below is an old one I know, but it cought my eye since it states
>that lead production was 80,000 tons per year around the birth of christ.
>The articles seems to assume that it would take the cupilation of 80,000
>tons of lead to create the 800 tons of lead deposition that has been
>noticed
>in Greenland.
>
>Would anyone care to guess the number of people involved in extracting that
>amount of lead per year using techniques available to the Roman and other
>peoples of the globe at that time? How does this compare to later lead
>production levels?
>
>Thanks
>
>George Chaplin
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 13:17:56 -0000
From: "[log in to unmask]"
Subject: Re: lead production in the Roman period
Hi Martin,
As I understand it, it is possible to separate the background levels of
freeborn lead from that deposited from human activity based on the 207/208
isotope ratio, and it is this same mathod that is used to calculate modern
polution methods. I'm not sure if this can be identified as specifically the
result of smelting, however I can't think of any other significant
factor/process that would contribute to the made produced levels of lead
pollution for the period.
There have been two study's to calculate lead polution through the ages -
Greenland ice and Swiss bog depositions. It is my understanding that these
showed a high degree of corroboration, so we know that the lead levels
detected, in terms of deposition are reasonably accurate.
I also found an article in French by the same researcher, that says the same
techniques were used to find that 2,000 tons of copper was also being
deposited per annum in the same period (at least, that's what I think it
says).
I will write to the author and clarify the deposition figure, but I'd
suggest that the techniques used are valid and seem to be accepted by most
bodies as being authorative since they form the basis of most studies in
lead polution.
I'm not sure that lack of physical evidence can be used to discredit this
research, as far as I can see an estimate based on the number of known mines
will always dramatically underestimate production, whereas global lead
deposition figures will always be non geographic and include all lead
deposited, not just by smelting or cupilation.
Anyway I've thought of an alternative test for the results.
Would it be possible to go to a point in history we are more certain of and
extimate how much deposition there should have been, perhaps the mid 1700's?
George Chaplin
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 15:02:52 +0000
From: Pete Mason
Subject: help with terminology please
Firstly thanks to everyone who replied to my request for information on
ownership and especially Adrian Pearce who pointed me in the right
direction for insurance etc. This query is about the correct names for the
lining used in mines.Our system of tunnels was dug in 1941 by a Royal
Engineer Tunnelling unit, they were principally miners who had joined up
and we believe that the materials used were standard colliery fittings. It
is built of rolled steel arches or ribs marked "GKN Swansea" either
5ftwx6ft6 high or 9ft w X 8ft h all at 2ft9 centres- what is the correct
term for these "arches"? Behind these is what I as an ex sapper call
wriggly tin, 3ft square corrageted sheets of what we have been told is
cadmium plated Arcote. Is the sheeting called Arcote/Arcoat and is it
cadmium plated? It is heavier than domestic CGI which was used near the
entrance and has long since rusted away.Thanks Pete
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 08:14:26 -0800
From: john waudby
Subject: Re-Terminology
The arches are called "rings" and the corrugated tins
are called "tins" or lagging.
John Waudby
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 12:39:31 EST
From: Daz Beattie
Subject: Re: Re-Terminology
Rings and Tins and Things.........
Water notes and snap notes
Soluble oil and sticking floats.
Busted bagging
Shearer cowl snagging.
Mid face lockouts
Chargie's demanding shouts.
Ripping lips'
Shearer haulage trips.
Rings
And tins and things.
Man riding belts
Knee pad straps causing painful welts.
Childish japes,
Rippers just like apes.
Fill off and get off,
The old collier's cough.
Wet, dark winter shifts
Bouncing headlong down the drifts.
Banking to sunshine
Cheating curly faceline.
Thurling through
Christmas Club Do.
Waistcoat pocket and crocodile props,
Cloddie roof and sticky tops.
Bag upon bag of white stone dust
Tensioners held fast with months of rust.
Broken chains
Bulging veins.
Swilleys and step-downs,
Smartarse clowns.
Pit checks and spanners,
Chisels and hammers.
Bolts with no threads on,
Mates to rely upon.
Saturdays and Sundays
Early dayshift on Mondays.
Coal in my ears
Polar Ajax tears.
Canteen pies
Management lies.
Curly boots
Blocked up chutes.
A tight fitting bearing
Managers swearing.
New boots and kneepads
Cheeky young timber lads.
Fifty-ton air doors, on your own.
Floors to roof nearly blown.
Paddy that's late.
Thin seams with weight.
Miles to walk,
Intellectual talk.
Educated deputies so polite
Meet a director, such a delight.
Flooded stable holes
Hardworking Poles.
Mining college exams.
Leaking rams.
Blackened nail,
Results say fail.
Shearer not hauling.
The fear of falling.
Mid face bladder pressure,
Self-rescuer refresher.
P.H.B. soap,
The time office dope.
Last cig before descending
First cig at the ending.
Dripping on bread
Or ham instead.
One in one drifts
Working three shifts.
THESE once were a few of my favourite things.
Union meetings at the Stute
Vote for action, pay dispute.
Union president stood to shout
Three strikes done and now I'm out !!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 18:24:39 -0000
From: Andrew Hurrell
Subject: Dorothea Quarry & Beam Engine
I have been receiving news over the last couple of weeks that the Dorothe=
a
Beam Engine is under a greatly increase threat.
Planning applications put in by the sites owner have been turned down at
appeal and either as a direct result of this or by the owner withdrawing
cooperation, the =A340,000 or so, of grant money for conservation has bee=
n
lost.
The local historian and campaigner for the engine, Dr Gwynfor Jones, has
asked me to circulate this news and his request for people to write to th=
e
local authority.
Letters should be polite and encouraging, tinged with worry, but without
putting the officials under pressure (we do not want to upstep anybody at
this stage), and should make reference to the importance of the
Dorothea Quarry site in terms of I.A. and possibly as a visitor attractio=
n.
Letters should be sent to the Chief Executive and the Chief of Planning o=
f
Gwynedd County Council, County offices, Caernarfon, Gwynedd, with cc's to
the local Welsh Assembly Member Dafydd Wigley AM, 8 Castle Street,
Caernarfon.
I hope this is not an unsuitable request to make through the list, I woul=
d
not ask for this kind of help for anything less than the Dorothea site.
Regards
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:40:42 -0800
From: john waudby
Subject: Petrol/gasoline engines U/G
My recollections of the UK Mines and Quarries Act, is
that the only internal combustion engine allowed
underground in ANY mine is a diesel engine.
All locos we used during my time in NCB pits of the
60's had flametraps and scrubbers on the exausts.
Brit Gypsum's Marblaegis Mine at East Leake, we had
diesel Landrovers with air diluters on the exausts,
and I know for fact if anyone had tried to bring a
petrol vehicle U/G there would have been hell to pay!
Even the surveyors, who covered the east midlands
mines for BG had a diesel Landrover which had mods on
it to bring U/G.
At Boulby Mine we used modified forklift trucks and
tractors U/G and of course there were the LHD's all
with Cat diesel engines with flametraps and scrubbers.
I believe they are running modified Ford pickups there
now with diesel engines flametraps and scrubbers.
Boulby was classified as a "safety lamp" mine back in
the late 70's when there was a minor ignition of
methane at a cutter jib in one of the faces.
When I was at Renison Bell tin mine in Tasmania, we
used diesel Toyota Landcruisers with scrubbers on the
exausts. And of course in the coal mines I worked at
in NSW, most vehicles were track mounted diesel locos,
and personnel carriers either diesel's with flametraps
and scrubbers and electric battery cars.
I would presume that in mines all over the world that
petrol engines are banned from U/G use for obvious
reasons, deadly CO emissions, it only takes a few
parts per million in the air to kill.
Hope that helps.
John Waudby
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
http://webhosting.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 19:59:20 +0000
From: Robert Waterhouse
Subject: Re: Dorothea Quarry & Beam Engine
Perhaps it would be helpful to members if you could explain the importanc=
e of the Dorothea Beam Engine. I've only vaguely heard of it, so would l=
ike to know more. Are there any web sites which help?
>=20
> From: Andrew Hurrell
> Date: Wed 12/Mar/2003 18:24 GMT
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Dorothea Quarry & Beam Engine
>=20
> I have been receiving news over the last couple of weeks that the Dorot=
hea
> Beam Engine is under a greatly increase threat.
>=20
> Planning applications put in by the sites owner have been turned down a=
t
> appeal and either as a direct result of this or by the owner withdrawin=
g
> cooperation, the =A340,000 or so, of grant money for conservation has b=
een
> lost.
>=20
> The local historian and campaigner for the engine, Dr Gwynfor Jones, ha=
s
> asked me to circulate this news and his request for people to write to =
the
> local authority.
>=20
> Letters should be polite and encouraging, tinged with worry, but withou=
t
> putting the officials under pressure (we do not want to upstep anybody =
at
> this stage), and should make reference to the importance of the
> Dorothea Quarry site in terms of I.A. and possibly as a visitor attract=
ion.
> Letters should be sent to the Chief Executive and the Chief of Planning=
of
> Gwynedd County Council, County offices, Caernarfon, Gwynedd, with cc's =
to
> the local Welsh Assembly Member Dafydd Wigley AM, 8 Castle Street,
> Caernarfon.
>=20
> I hope this is not an unsuitable request to make through the list, I wo=
uld
> not ask for this kind of help for anything less than the Dorothea site.
>=20
> Regards
>=20
> Andrew
>=20
_________________________________________________________________________=
_
Freeserve AnyTime - Go online whenever you want for just =A36.99 a month =
for
your first 3 months, that's HALF PRICE! And then it's just =A314.99 a mon=
th
after that.
For more information visit http://www.freeserve.com/time/ or call free on=
=20
0800 970 8890
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 15:02:21 -0500
From: "Thompson, Woodrow B."
Subject: Re: Dorothea Quarry & Beam Engine
=== message truncated ===
John Berry Associates
Geology & Remote Sensing
5000 Beverly Hills Drive
AUSTIN, TX 78731, U.S.A.
+1-512-452-8068 (Voice)
+1-512-413-9270 (cell)
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