Thanks for this explanation of your church. I can (as a child of the 60s) appreciate the intent of those who wanted to escape the sometimes-suffocating-seeming moral atmosphere of those days. Certainly, the church Bertha belongs to and others like it seem, to me, to be built on the absolute value of "nonjudgmentalism," when it comes to actions and activities that have been, in earlier times, considered sinful or, to use Bertha's vocabulary, barriers to good relationships with God and others.
What I have never been able to have satisfactorily answered is what, if anything, is considered "wrong" by such churches and similar organizations. Now, I would consider overt racism to be not only wrong but sinful. Further, I would think that if I were a member of the United Church of Canada, and consistently engaged in racist activities -- despite the loving intervention of the church members -- as a member of that church, that at some point the church would unite to declare (at least) that my racism is "wrong" and not to be tolerated or considered as the doctrine of the UCC. Therefore, they will, at some point and in some way (I believe) engage in judging the actions of others.
Thus, I believe that the "new" churches and "affirming" organizations have simply replaced one set of orthodoxies for another.
I hasten to add that I write this not to attack anyone (I have plenty of problems that I am sure will be or have been pointed out to me...:-)), but to make the point that what looks to be the moral high ground might really be a swamp. With all due respect to swamps, of course.
Timothy Lillie, PhD
Dept. of Curricular & Instructional Studies
The University of Akron
Akron OH 44325-4205
330-972-6746 (Voice)
330-972-5209 (Fax)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bertha Mo [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 1:07 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Continuation of religion/disability discussion
>
>
> The United Church of Canada doesn't emphasize sin
> per se...but focuses on healing our relationship with
> God, each other, the Earth and on social justice...
> Prayers are requested for healing of the sick, for
> those who are experiencing difficulties in
> relationship, difficulties in life, for wisdom
> etc...Those who are more interested in the theology of
> the United Church of Canada should have a look at the
> website: ucc.ca...
> Historically this church began less than 80 years ago
> when Canadians recognized quite wisely that having too
> many tiny churches was not effective nor a good
> stewardship model...the United Church of Canada was a
> union of the Congregational, Methodist and more
> progressive faction of the Presbyterian Churches...The
> church has ordained woman for almost two decades and
> also has gay ministers...Out of a little over 1,000
> congregations, 23 are officially gay, lesbian, bi-,
> trangender affirming...
>
> Bertie Mo
>
> Bertie Mo
> --- Laurence Bathurst <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > ---- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lillie,Timothy H" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 1:21 AM
> > Subject: Re: Continuation of religion/disability
> > discussion
> >
> > Tim
> >
> >
> > >Larry:
> >
> > >I know this is directed at another, but I want to
> > point out that your
> > >question to Bertha suggests that there is somehow
> > something wrong with
> > >praying for sinners to recognize their sins and
> > change.
> >
> > No. That was not what i was getting at. I was asking
> > whether she would
> > feeled compelled to pray for me because I am a gay
> > man. In other words, does
> > her Church see homosexuality, bisexuality etc as a
> > sin?
> >
> > >Imagine, for example, that you had asked someone if
> > they would include
> > >racists and sexists at their table "without feeling
> > the need to pray for
> > their >sins?" You would NEVER (I hope) do this, yet
> > you feel not the least
> > >compunction lecturing another or what her beliefs
> > should be.
> >
> > Was I lecturing?
> > Racists, sexists, queers. Is this an insinuation?
> > (pun not intended)
> >
> > Basically Tim, I don't want people to pray for me
> > because I'm gay. I find it
> > highly insulting. If people choose to adopt a belief
> > system that sees
> > homosexuality as sinful then that's up to them. I do
> > not have to like it,
> > respect it or otherwise. I just have to respect
> > other people's right to have
> > such beliefs. But I do like to know how churches,
> > faiths, congregations etc
> > do view homosexuality so I can form my own opinions
> > according to my own
> > beliefs. Thus it is sometimes necessary to ask.
> >
> > >Now, she may be 100% in accord with your way of
> > thinking, but I think >your
> > question would have been better put as something
> > like: "How do >you handle
> > situations where someone who is part of your group
> > 'sins' >according to the
> > norms of your group?"
> >
> > That would have been a good way of putting it if
> > that had been the question
> > I was asking. It wasn't. I do agree that my question
> > wasn't straightforward
> > but it seems Bertha did know what i was getting at.
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Laurence Bathurst
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 10:02 PM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: Continuation of religion/disability
> > discussion
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello Bertha
> > >
> > > Do you or would you include gay men, lesbians,
> > bi-sexuals or
> > > transgender
> > > people at your table too? I mean without feeling
> > the need to
> > > pray for their
> > > sins?
> > >
> > > Disclaimer: - this is not an acusation. I am
> > genuinely
> > > interested in whether
> > > such a thing exists.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Best regards
> > >
> > > Laurence Bathurst
> > > School of Occupation and Leisure Sciences
> > > Faculty of Health Sciences
> > > University of Sydney
> > >
> >
> > ________________End of message______________________
> >
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> > Best regards
> >
> > Laurence Bathurst
> > School of Occupation and Leisure Sciences
> > Faculty of Health Sciences
> > University of Sydney
> >
> > PO Box 170
> > Lidcombe NSW 1825
> > Australia
> >
> > Ph: 61 2 9351 9509
> > Fax: 61 2 9351 9509
> > Email: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > See School Website www.ot.cchs.usyd.edu.au
> >
> > Home Ph: 61 2 9818 2050
> > Mobile Ph: 0407 069 441
> >
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