medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Christopher,
Yes I overstated the case about socio-economic
factors, but apparently modern dynamics (e.g.
commercialisation, urbanisation, specialisation, etc.)
were present to the Middle Ages in ways that appear to
have been deeply unsettling at all levels of society.
(Arguably, no less disturbing then than now!) My
point was that this does not explain any perceived
lack of 'crises' over identity in the period.
Over the issue of conflicts, I think you are
misrepresenting me a bit. I wouldn't for a minute
suggest that the conflicts between Cluniacs and
Cistercians were anything like as divisive as the
contemporary religious conflicts to which you refer.
(Though, of course, medieval Muslim/Christian,
Jewish/Christian, Cathar/Christian conflicts are
certainly comparable!) I was merely pointing out that
such domestic religious conflicts reflected rival
accounts of the self. They were mild expressions of
conflict over identity admittedly, but one doesn't
have to look too far in the period to find more severe
examples.
Anyway, wasn't all of this (as silly as it sounds) to
do with what Constable would say, rather than what he
did say in response to a question about
spiritual/psychological disturbance? I was suggesting
that he might have said medieval disturbances had
medieval expressions, that's all.
Best,
Scott
--- Christopher Crockett <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religion and culture
>
> Scott Matthews <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >Timothy Ladd wrote:
> "One of the main reasons that Freud will not be
> very useful in the Middle
> Ages is that there was no crisis of identity as we
> know it. Socioeconomic
> factors there again being the major cause of this
> psychological divide."
>
>
>
> >Many would argue that the proliferation of popular
> religious groups
> between the end of the tenth century and the
> beginning of the thirteenth was
> itself much to do with a crisis of identity.
>
> perhaps Timothy should have said "that there was,
> *relatively,* no crisis of
> identity as we know it."
>
> or, maybe that's what his "as we know it" was meant
> to imply.
>
>
> >The political and socio-economic factors which
> sociologists are inclined to
> identify as quintessentially modern (e.g.
> commercialisation,
> urbanisation, individualism, centralisation,
> technological change, etc. etc.)
> appear to have been as much a part of the high
> Middle Ages as of our own
> modernity.
>
>
> !!
>
>
> o, for goodness' sake.
>
> >The sociological models which are used to describe
> our own epoch are often
> applicable to the past.
>
> within certain well and deliberately defined limits,
> and with great caution,
> perhaps.
>
> >Our medieval ancestors differ fundamentally from us
> in the worldviews,
> conceptual frameworks, religious and secular
> narratives within which they
> expressed and resolved (in part) their own crises of
> identity.
>
> agreed.
>
> >Nonetheless, this does not mean that the Middle
> Ages somehow had a
> 'coherent' and 'integrated belief-system'.
> Constable, among others, has
> written at great length about the religious
> conflicts between
> rival religious orders in the twelfth century, not
> to mention various
> heretical sects in the period.
>
>
> again, i'm sure even the Great Man would agree that
> it's a question of
> *relative* "coherence" and "integration of
> belief-system."
>
> to compare the [admittedly very real] "religious
> conflicts" between, say, the
> Cluniacs & Cistercians with the intensely divisive,
> not infrequently violent,
> and thoroughly "disintegrated" ones of the Modern
> Era (from the early 16th c.
> to the Present Moment) is to fundamentally
> misunderstand the nature of both
> "conflicts."
>
> *nothing* compares, historically, with the present
> "incoherent" and
> "disintegrated belief-system" of the world we live
> in.
>
>
> best from here, nonetheless,
>
> christopher
>
>
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