---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 10:57:23 +0200
From: Salim Tamari <[log in to unmask]>
To: Benoit de l'Estoile <[log in to unmask]>
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: War on statistics

Dear Professor de L'Estoile

Many thanks for sending me the exchange on PCBS.  The issue has been
discussed at length here and in the Israeli press.  Thre is a lot of
material that is available on the PCBS web site (available via google) and
in the English version of Haaretz. Most recently Amira Haas, Haaretz
correspondent in the West Bank wrote a detailed account of what happened.

PCBS is located in the northern part of Ramallah which is currently
occupied by the Israeli army. Like many public and state offices in this
area the Israeli army has felt free to enter these buildings and take
material from them for investigation. The Israelis do not distinguish in
this regard between civilian and military installation. They regard all
establishments that are connected to the government as legitimate
'terrorist' targets. In this case they have confiscated computers,
publications, data sets, and file cabinets. They have not so far returned
any of the confiscated materials. One of their 'findings' is that PCBS is
being funded by Norwegian, Swedish, and European community funds. This
knowledge, which is available on the PCBS web site, has been publicized as
if it is the result of investigation into the seizure of this property.

PCBS is well known, since it was established few years ago, as a
respectable body of data gathering and data dissimenation. Its publications
are consulted by all academic and other researchers involved in the study
of Palestinian society. It has established strong relations with Arab and
European bureaus of statistics, and has had cordial relations with the
Israeli Bureau of Statistics.  All its work is available to the public,
through its web site and its publication offices.
PCBS is a public body that does not involve itself in politics or partisan
activity. Its only encounter with the Israelis occured when it tried to
extend the Palestinian census to the Arab (occupied) sector of Jerusalem.
At that time PCBS census takers were arrested and prohibited from
conducting their survey.

I completely agree with the note sent by Prof. Baruch Kimmerling from the
Hebrew University. This is not a matter for dialogue.  The facts of the
matter are fully known. The Israeli army has not made any claims that PCBS
is a security establishment, nor that they have found any material that is
'dangerous'.  Furthermore they have illegally entered an area of town which
has neither attacked nor resisted the Israeli army. The only reason for the
presence of the Israeli army into northern Ramallah is that it is the road
that leads to Yaser Arafat's headquarters. And they remain there until this
moment. None of the material stolen from PCBS has been returned. And no
apologies have been made for the seizure of purely scientifc data.

Yours,

Salim Tamari
Associate Professor of Sociology
Birzeit University.

At 02:25 PM 2/1/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>Dear colleague,
>I am writing to you as suggested by Rashid Khalidi, I was prompted to act
>by reading a letter by David Seddon to the LRB about the destruction of
>the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics in Ramallah, and I felt a
>collective reaction was needed. I send you a few mails that were exchanged
>on the European Sociologist network, after my posting. I  would be
>grateful if you had any more details on the incident, which I might
>communicate to my colleagues.
>Best
>Benoit de L'Estoile
>
>
>>Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:17:50 +0100
>>From: "Benoit de l'Estoile" <[log in to unmask]>
>>Subject: War on statistics
>>
>>I am surprised, as I appear to receive messages from the list at this
>address.
>>
>>Dear Colleagues,
>>I read in a letter to the London review of books that the Palestinian
>>Bureau of Statistics, partially funded by the European Union, had
>>been sacked by the Israeli army, in one of their so-called
>>anti-terrorist retaliations. It is hard to guess how statistics are
>>involved in terrorism, and I would be grateful if anyone could give
>>more detailed information on this incident to the list; once more
>>details are known, I wonder if it would not be proper that the
>>European Sociological Association should voice a formal protest not
>>towards Israeli government's general policy (which is not within the
>>range of a professional association), but towards what seems a
>>gratuitous attack against one fundamental basis of a scientific
>>knowledge of society.
>>Sincerely,
>>Benoit de L'Estoile
>>Departement de sciences sociales
>>Ecole normale superieure
>>48 Bd Jourdan, 75014 Paris
>>Tel: 01 43 13 62 23
>
> From bin  Thu Jan 31 15:44:20 2002
>Date:         Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:51:27 +0100
>Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
>Sender: "Based upon the newsletter of the European Sociological
>Association (ESA)." <[log in to unmask]>
>From: [log in to unmask]
>Subject:      Réf. : Fwd: War on statistics
>To: [log in to unmask]
>X-Message: scanned by AMaViS 0.2.1-pre3
>
>Dear Colleagues,
>The proposal that  Benoit de l'Estoile is making does not seem appropriate
>for at least two reasons:
>1-The information about the destruction of the Bureau of Statistics is not
>clear to this date and whether or not that Bureau is located in  an area
>that was of strategic importance, which might explain why it has been
>touched during Israel's fight against terrorism .
>2- The protest that is suggested is not only based on unclear information,
>but would only add fuel to the fire of the many one-sided arguments that
>are made almost daily, whether from one side or the other, in this terrible
>and tragic conflict. And in so doing, we are adding obstacles to the very
>necessary peace process.   It would be infinitely preferable to play a
>peacemaking role by understanding the sufferings of both Israelis and
>Palestinians and by supporting those who within both sides, advocate
>dialogue and a political resolution that this conflict desparately calls
>for.
>
>Claudine Attias-Donfut
>Direction des Recherches
>49, rue Mirabeau
>75016 Paris
>
>
>
>My reply:
>I fear my proposal is being misunderstood by Claudine Attias-Donfut.
>
>Dear Colleagues,
>The proposal that  Benoit de l'Estoile is making does not seem appropriate
>for at least two reasons:
>1-The information about the destruction of the Bureau of Statistics is not
>clear to this date and whether or not that Bureau is located in  an area
>that was of strategic importance, which might explain why it has been
>touched during Israel's fight against terrorism .
>
>`That is why I was asking for more information, in order not to act upon
>rumor, but with a precise knowledge of the facts and circumstances.
>
>2- The protest that is suggested is not only based on unclear information,
>but would only add fuel to the fire of the many one-sided arguments that
>are made almost daily, whether from one side or the other, in this terrible
>and tragic conflict. And in so doing, we are adding obstacles to the very
>necessary peace process.   It would be infinitely preferable to play a
>peacemaking role by understanding the sufferings of both Israelis and
>Palestinians and by supporting those who within both sides, advocate
>dialogue and a political resolution that this conflict desparately calls
>for.
>
>Again, I do not think it is for us to intervene qua scientists (as opposed
>to citizens) in this tragic (for both sides) conflict, but I do think we
>can voice a collective opinion on a specific incident such as the
>destruction of a Bureau of Statistics, be it in Palestine, Nigeria,
>Equador or Switzerland.
>
>Best
>Benoit
>
>
>From: Baruch Kimmerling <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject:      Re: Réf. : Fwd: War on statistics
>Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
>To: [log in to unmask]
>X-Message: scanned by AMaViS 0.2.1-pre3
>
>On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
>>The proposal that  Benoit de l'Estoile is making does not seem appropriate
>>for at least two reasons:
>>1-The information about the destruction of the Bureau of Statistics is not
>>clear to this date and whether or not that Bureau is located in  an area
>>that was of strategic importance, which might explain why it has been
>>touched during Israel's fight against terrorism .
>
>Strategic importance?! Haa?! Are you expert in strategy? The only aims
>of Israeli state terrorism and its strategy is to dismantle the
>Palestinians as a political entity and to ensure the its permanent
>control over the Palestinian territories and the continuity of Israel's
>colonization project.
>
>>2- The protest that is suggested is not only based on unclear information,
>>but would only add fuel to the fire of the many one-sided arguments that
>>are made almost daily, whether from one side or the other, in this terrible
>>and tragic conflict. And in so doing, we are adding obstacles to the very
>>necessary peace process.   It would be infinitely preferable to play a
>>peacemaking role by understanding the sufferings of both Israelis and
>>Palestinians and by supporting those who within both sides, advocate
>>dialogue and a political resolution that this conflict desparately calls
>>for.
>
>No need for dialogue. Israel have to withdrawal unilaterally and ASAP from
>all the occupied  territories following the 1967 War and to recognize the
>sovereignty of the Palestinian state. Then will be possibility for
>symmetrical dialogue between two state that will have a lot of common
>interests.
>Best,
>
>  Baruch Kimmerling
>  George S. Wise Professor of Sociology
>  Department of Sociology       Office phone:  +972 2 5883041
>  The Hebrew University         Home phone:    +972 2 5333583
>  91905 Jerusalem, Israel       Fax:           +972 2 5828247
>
>
> From bin  Thu Jan 31 16:36:50 2002
>Thread-Topic:      Réf. : Fwd: War on statistics
>Thread-Index: AcGqZcL6150vCkBORla4IwCRMM6bRwAAbQ1w
>X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jan 2002 15:26:10.0605 (UTC)
>                       FILETIME=[9C7265D0:01C1AA6B]
>Date:         Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:26:10 +0100
>Reply-To: "Ronald J. Pohoryles" <[log in to unmask]>
>Sender: "Based upon the newsletter of the European Sociological
>Association (ESA)." <[log in to unmask]>
>From: "Ronald J. Pohoryles" <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject:      War on statistics
>To: [log in to unmask]
>X-Message: scanned by AMaViS 0.2.1-pre3
>
>Dear All,
>
>I fully share Claudine's position. Benoit de l'Estoile's proposal is, and
>this is very sad to say, an interesting example in case for Pierre-André
>Taguieff's recent publication "La nouvelle judéophobie". Furthermore, it
>seems to me ridiculous - to say the least - to complain about such a minor
>incident in a war like this.
>
>For the potential peace making role of social scientist there is a very
>good example: the involvment of the Peace Research Institute in Oslo
>during (and before) the Oslo negotiations. But this was quite a singular
>experience due to a favourable political constellation.
>
>Does anyone know what our Israeli and Palestinian colleagues are doing in
>this respect and whether we could support them, perhaps with respect to
>common activities? This would be a much more appropriate initiative as far
>as I could understand the role of the international social science community.
>
>Regards,
>
>Ronald J Pohoryles
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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