Hi grasshopper,
Sorry I couldn't be around for the earlier parts of this discussion as well!
I, too, really like the poem. It plays well with the reader, and what the
reader may know about history and the christian religion. I guess what I
admite most is that things are just there in the poem and the reader has to
find them. (There's a fine bit of George Herbert I always remember where "a
man may look on glass..." but the self-same person may look through the
glass "and there the heaven espy." (espy being 16th-century-speak for see).
The piece, for me, carries lots of different
meanings/interpretations/layers.
One thing I did feel, however, with the original poem is that it had a sort
of literary feel to it. I mean it didn't feel conversational. It didn't feel
as I expected a Roman Soldier to speak. It sort of felt more like writing
than an individual person's thoughts or feelings. I'd liked to have felt a
bit closer to the guy, maybe as if I were hearing a monologue-ish, more
relaxed, kind of tone. (Not as much as the various contemporary Mystery
Plays have re-introduced to religious literature - which are delightful but
very strongly vernacular!) but such different tones may become more apparent
in your revised version anyway...
Bob
>From: grasshopper <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: New sub: Remembering the grapes
>Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 04:09:13 +0100
>
>Dear Arthur,
>Thanks so much for your comments. I have revised the poem quite a bit, as I
>think there was a lot that needed trimming . I have changed Italy to 'his
>green hills', which avoids the anachronism (and echoes a hymn for me)
>I am very interested in the idea of people experiencing events from the
>sidelines-T.S.Eliot's attendant lords. How would one of the Roman soldiers
>who crucified Christ have seen the event? -after all, it was probably just
>another day's work to him.
>My worry was that the Christian overtones of the wine etc, of course, can't
>originate from the soldier, who is oblivious to their significance,-and
>they
>have to come 'over his head' as it were.
>I hope the soldier doesn't come across as entirely unsympathetic, as I saw
>him as just an ordinary person with an unpleasant job to do, one that he
>didn't want.
>Kind regards,
> grasshopper
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "arthur seeley" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 3:47 PM
>Subject: Re: New sub: Remembering the grapes
>
>
> > I have come back to this in the light of my remarks on 'layering'.
> > For me this is an excellent poem in many ways.
> > First there is the denouement of the poem when we realise or are allowed
>to
> > know exactly who the central character of the poem is and with the
> > realisation the poem fans out, as it were, to show a wider picture and
>all
> > the earlier references take on another broader meaning or rather are
> > understood better.
> > Now there is that second layer available and not just a layer of better
> > understood references but rather the brutish lumpen nature of the
>persona
> > who has taken a key role in history but can only fret over the minute
>pain
> > his pricked finger, his blood shed and has no concern for the larger
>agony
> > in his presence and now he wants a drink. Thus it seems may be the
>nature
>of
> > many at historic moments, ignorant, unaware, insensitive, selfishly
> > concerned for their own physical well-being.
> > Of course we look deeper for new layers now and find them in the final
>lines
> > where we remember wine is the blood of Christ in the communion, Rome is
>to
> > be the home of the 'new religion' and ' new vintage' suddenly means far
>more
> > than just wine.
> > This is the sort of layering that parallels the simple narrative of the
> > piece and gives the poem a rich texture that I revisit for pleasure.
> > I was going to hope that all this was intended but really that is not
>the
> > question, is it? It is what I find in my mining of the piece as a
>reader.
>My
> > contribution , if you like. And doesn't the reader contribute?? Should
>he??
> > Regards Arthur.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "grasshopper" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 6:33 AM
> > Subject: New sub: Remembering the grapes
> >
> >
> > > Remembering the grapes
> > >
> > > A big, good-looking lad,
> > > his arms and shoulders shaped
> > > by working the Umbrian soil
> > > when he was young, now he thinks
> > > of the vineyards and curses
> > > the day he took up the sword
> > > and the standard. Not that
> > > it's any disgrace to uphold
> > > the Pax Romana, but sometimes
> > > he misses the smell of rich
> > > damp soil in this parched land,
> > > feels weary of an alien place
> > > full of dark religions fermenting
> > > like grain under the sun, the Zealots
> > > and the priests all babbilng beardily,
> > > their eyes bulging like barrel-bungs.
> > > He sucks his finger thoughtfully
> > > running his tongue over fresh ridges
> > > where briars snagged his flesh.
> > > Tomorrow he will offer a pair
> > > of pure white doves to Jupiter
> > > and ask to be posted back to Italy.
> > > Who can feel at home in a land
> > > where the sky grows dark in the eye
> > > of a bright afternoon? He never wanted
> > > the bloody execution detail;
> > > the splinters were bad enough,
> > > but the thorns crowned his discontent.
> > > Leave them to it, he thinks,
> > > and dreams of the burst of red grapes
> > > in his mouth and the first draught
> > > of the new vintage.
> > >
> > > grasshopper
> >
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