... Yeh, Frank, I guess punctuation isn’t taught as it used to be. But I
know I was either off school ill when the uses of colons, semicolons etc
were taught, or they were taught in a way that I can’t remember! I guess,
though, like words themselves, the guidelines of what and when to use the
little markers is slowly changing. I guess, like you, I want what I use in a
poem to work (and not cause puzzled comment, or worse, confusion). I can
remember the first time I saw one-word sentences in poems! At first I was
shocked... then I loved the audacity of it, the verve. It worked.
I guess I learn how the commas, dashes, semicolons etc are used in
contemporary poems by reading contemporary poems – and looking at how the
stuff’s presented on the page. Only a madman or a worried poet may spend
half an afternoon in a bookshop or library reading through a recently
published book to see if there’s any semicolons! (And, if they’re there,
working out why – and if there’s none discovering somewhere where one could
have been used and pondering the possibilities as to why it wasn’t!).
I used to use a fair few semicolons, then got pulled up about it, so I
stopped. And I can’t recall ever being told I should be using one in some
poem I’ve written since (even though there’s points in the poem where I
could have used one). (I’ve not got the best of memory, tho.) And who pulled
me up about it when I was using them? Magazine editors, people with a fair
few books in print, people I could trust.
But there’s still the rebel in me that’s determined to use some little
marker that’s almost been retired. If I do something like that, tho, I then
find I need to question my motives... (And sometimes, taking a deep breath,
go for it!) I still, for instance, use the occasional colon... And I’ve
sometimes tried what Ryfkah uses, white space/long gaps – but I didn’t keep
using it, it didn’t seem to fit my style.
I guess poets have to balance like a high wire artist somewhere between
what’s written and what’s spoken; like Christina mentioned both music and
fine art in her post - and grasshopper mentions music, too - we’ve an art
that’s got connectives to what’s both visual and verbal, we’re creating
things for both sight and sound.
Bob
>From: Frank Faust <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: rrFRrXC578
>Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 10:59:32 +1000
>
>Interesting discussion. My two bobs worth on punctuation is that it isn't
>taught properly any more. Personally I have no confidence in its use and
>therefore avoid it as far as possible - I'd rather not have any than be
>constantly corrected because my mastery is poor. Interestingly, this forces
>me to at least try to use my line structures to convey pace and pause to
>the
>reader - which is a worthwhile pursuit in any case, I think.
>
>Interesting to me the discussion of 'i' for the personal pronoun. I'm very
>comfortable with the lower case 'i' but stopped using it because it became
>a
>constant source of comment, to the point of being distracting.
>
>
>Cheers,
>
>Frank
>
>
>
>>Dear Christina,
>>Re dashes and colons.I don't see colons as ugly either.To me, a dash
>>seems
>>very informal, perhaps a bit slang-y at times.
>>I think as a colon as introducing an expansion or explanation, while the
>>dash signals a digression.
>>I've thought a lot about punctuation too, and it seems to me it's a Good
>>Thing , in that it's a method to help readers read the poem, just as
>>musicians need musical notation to help them know how the composer heard
>>the music in his head. Often punctuation is essential to convey the
>>meaning,and I feel ,looking back at some of my old poems, that I left out
>>punctuation just an an affectation. I think the more I've considered the
>>pros and cons of punctuation, the more I've used it.
>>Actually what is the con of using punctuation? Does it offend some
>>author's
>>eyes?
>>Kind regards<
>>grasshopper
>>
>>-- Original Message -----
>> From: Christina Fletcher
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 9:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: Sub: Deception PS
>>
>>
>> Hello Bob. Thoughts in your text.
>> bw
>> christina
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Christina,
>> H'm, Caps at the start of each line...
>> I guess, as well as thinking that Caps at the start of each line is a
>> traditional device to emphasise that what's on the page is a poem,
>>
>> *** I'm not convinced by this thought. When did the use of caps at
>>the
>>beginning of lines start? Sorry if this is boring but I'm asking from the
>>point of view of someone who doesn't know anything about it. Capital
>>letters suggest the beginning of a unit to me. I was fiddling (not even
>>remotely successfully) because I wanted to try to make each line work as a
>>unit as well as in the overall context of the piece. But that was to do
>>with my own brainspace and it would probably have been better to use it as
>>a device and then take it out. Ermm...
>>
>> there's
>>
>>
>>
>> other things I consider too.
>> I mean I don't use them myself (and HATE it when some publisher or
>>their
>> printer changes my text to include them!).
>> I guess I look at punctuation and Caps together.
>> I mean I see commas in poems, and dashes, as ways of putting on the
>>brakes
>> (of slowing the reader down a little).
>>
>>
>> *** I'm in a dilemma about punctuation particularly when it comes to
>>choosing between a dash and a colon. I don't think colons are ugly. They
>>read in my head as 'that is'. A dash feels different but I'm unable to
>>explain what I mean.
>>
>> And I see full stops and capital
>>
>> letters as (well) a sign of a full stop in the flow of the poem.
>>(Like
>>most
>> contemporary poets I rarely use colons or semicolons - as an
>>American,
>> Richard Wilbur, once said of semicolons "they look ugly.").
>>
>>
>> *** Hmm, semicolons seem to be unpopular with quite a few excellent
>>contemporary poets. I wonder why? Aren't they a bit like semiquavers?
>>It's very confusing: poetry has a lot to do with music and yet the
>>notation's vague and extremely limited. Richard Wilbur's comment is
>>astonishingly mad. Imagine Bach saying 'Breeves -yuck!'
>>
>> I think Caps at
>>
>>
>>
>> the start of a line are another device for slowing the reader down a
>>little,
>> of emphasising the autonomy of the line over the flow of the
>>sentence.
>> I guess, as well, though, I've become a creature of habit. Because I
>>write
>> with an eye to creating sentences I have to struggle when I realise I
>> haven't created a complete one. I also don't use small case letters
>>to
>>start
>> sentences (I think that looks wrong!).
>>
>>
>> And I don't use a small case i for
>>
>>
>> me, for I, because, again, I don't like the look of it - I can't
>>really feel
>> that it's OK (my mind keeps replacing it with a capital letter!).
>>
>>
>> *** I'm horribly influenced by the way things look on the screen
>>(forgive me for what I've just said, Richard Wilbur). I notice all kinds
>>of things that are probably crackers. I recently carved part of Helena
>>Nelson''s 'Mr and Mrs Philpott on Holiday at Auchterawe':
>>
>> He has tipped, he has spilled
>> his soul into her
>> and she carries it still
>> like starlight on water.
>>
>> The extraordinary thing about these lines is that the whole structure's
>>unlike anything I've ever carved before. When I sprayed it with silver
>>paint and sanded it out all the upright serifs held the silver and looked
>>exactly like starlight on water (except that there's no such thing as
>>starlight - or is there?). That may sound as mad as a deranged stoat but
>>it's absolutely true. Well, I thought blimey Nell, you've really hit the
>>nail on the head here.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>The Tales of Faust poetry page can be found at:
>http://www.hotkey.net.au/~flp/F_index.htm
>
>
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