I'm as intrigued by the discussion as much as I'm interested in the poem.
But real poetry... (true poetry...)... don't know what that is myself
(except when I come across it!).
If I were forced to make a definition of Good Poetry, though, I might want
to talk about focus, about a blend of form and content, about the way the
words I read (or hear) make me want to say "Yes!"
Parts of this poem remind me very strongly of Blake (particularly the songs
of innocence & experience - and your line "when I desired to dance and play"
seems to echo Blakes protests at organised religion so clearly and loudly!).
Blake, however, (for good reasons!) had to write in a kind of code where
direct attacks were well hidden. (& Blake was a poet people still say "Yes!"
to).
I also enjoy echoes of Betjemin's ironic style, and Stevie Smith's skill at
stating the devastating critical comments so simply.
I guess, though, each of the people I'm reminded of wrote with a tighter
adherance to metrical form (and a hymn stanza wouldn't be innapropriate to
the subject - I guess). But I think I may now be saying what christina's
already said.
And Arthur's also pointed out how it isn't simply a devastating attack...
I read it with a smile - and still recognise its strengths - and it's
(redeemable technical) faults.
Bob


on 1/3/02 8:21 pm, grasshopper at [log in to unmask]
wrote:

>Dear James.
>I think it's a bit unfair to expect Sally to present
>a crtitique of other religions when it's clear she's writing about her
own
>upbringing as a Christian, not a Buddhist or a Hindu or whatever.
>There's a long and healthy tradition of bashing the Christian
religion, from
>Chaucer and probably before.
>I don't see that being a rant stops a piece being a 'true' poem,- not
sure
>what a true poem is, to be honest, but of course, we all have our own
>opinions.( I would be very interested if you could elaborate on what
you
>feel makes a true poem). Isn't there a distinguished tradition of
rants in
>English poetry, Pope, Swift, right back to the Anglo Saxon curses?
>I did feel it was a true poem, and I thought, I may be wrong that it
>conveyed sincere feelings, to which I responded. I sense Sally and I
may
>have attended the same sort of school - 'He wants me in his hockey
team'
>Yes,play up and play the game. Oh yes, and I was also threatened with
not
>being made a prefect if I didn't attend the Christian worship part of
>assembly, which,as an agnostic, meant nothing to me.
>The only problem for me with Sally's poem, was that as a rant, it
>wasn't bitter enough.
>
>Kind regards,
>grasshopper

Oh yes it was sincere feelings, Grassy, but putting this poem up has
shown
me that I still feel guilty and apologetic about writing like this. I
still
see it as "negative feelings". And perhaps rather unimportant feelings?
I
can't stand up for my views when ticked off by nice people like James!

And school does come into it, doesn't it, social pressure.

Perhaps I can do this subject better some day.

Thanks
Sally ee



>     JESUS
>
>I haven't forgiven Jesus
>   (though he's forgiven me)
>for frightening me as a child
>    making me stoop on bended knee
>
>not to the great wide universe
>    but to a narrow god,
>routing the bright plurality
>    for one cussed despot.
>
>Nor for my hair being cut so short,
>    my dresses sober black and grey,
>for hanging on a dirty cross
>    when I desired to dance and play
>
>for taking credit for the flowers
>     and lovely things that still crept in
>to the universe he occupied
>    with so much thought of sin,
>
>for taking in my parents
>    whose fault I think it wasn't
>(because I loved them more than him).
>He loves me? No he doesn't -
>
>he wants me in his hockey team
>   he wants me on his side,
>he wants me to get up and say
>    it was for me he died.
>
>I never heard such utter rot,
>   I  never heard such pish.
>The words that spring at once to mind
>    are 'bicycle' and 'fish'.
>
>I don't want his forgiveness
>    and I don't admire his  god.
>I'd rather think that everything
>    just happened out of mud.
>
>And he if ever listened
>   to what stared him in the face,
>he'd stop saying he'd forgiven me
>   and just get off my case.
>
>
>
>Sally Evans




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