I think there is much in what you say -

a while back, maybe here, maybe elsewhere, Alison quoted a book which I
swore I would read and then didnt which analyses differences of perception
in this very matter - how culturally groups really do see what they are
doing as morally different when the blind dead others see the immoral
equivalence (I may have amended the thesis of the book slightly there - if
Alison's listening in maybe she can remind me of the book's title, if she
recognises my description, so that I can ask Father Christmas)

One sees it in the objection to ICC - for sure those who might be indicted
will be aware of their responsibilities, if only when they wake up in the
middle of the night and their partner's snoring, but it seems that a number
(many!) USAmericans - I am meaning "decent" people who have not
mass-murdered and who are, left to themselves, amiable and welcoming (my
experience of US) - see unequivocally that there is no possibility in USA
being accessible to ICC because USA doesnt commit war crimes and therefore
any charge would be political and therefore wrong

Israel the same - How *can you compare us to Nazi Germany! is the shout long
before you can say Actually there are huge differences

In answer to one question: We dont matter

Having said all of which, if I had to spend an evening with Clinton or
Hitler I think I'd choose Clinton; but I'd rather be alone than with either
of them

On the other hand, while Hitler may have been a suitable case for category A
treatment, Clinton knows just what he's doing; but I'll leave the level of
judgement which follows to Big Y


L

----- Original Message -----
From: "paul murphy" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 14 November 2002 21:17
Subject: Re: Padraic Fallon (or 'values')


| I asked a friend, if Bill Clinton is responisble for all the deaths of
these Iraqis, in a war fought over oil, why isn't he tried for it? He
answered that the ruling classes have different definitions of what a 'war
criminal' is. I just wish they'd share these definitions with the rest of
us, or don't we matter? Adolf Hitler employed unilateralism and contempt for
international procedures, so too has the US. The difference is that AH was
stupid enough to lose. Might is right!
|
|
|
| >From: Lawrence Upton
| >Reply-To: Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry
and poetics
| >To: [log in to unmask]
| >Subject: Re: Padraic Fallon (or 'values')
| >Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:56:31 -0000
| >
| >Well, as I said, there are similarities
| >
| >There are differences too. There always will be.
| >
| >I'm not sure it matters too much to get an exact match. It's not much of
a
| >claim to be able to say "We are not as bad as Nazi Germany" The
comparison
| >of Israel and Germany, not just NG but what led up to it, is interesting
| >because in some ways they seem to spring from similar ideas. Widespread
| >ideas. Chuck in Greece there. I wouldn't want to push it too far but
think
| >of the use of Hebrew and the Greek construction of the katherevousa... I
| >went with a Jewish mate to a festival of Yiddish films some years ago and
he
| >was amazed at what *he learned about Yiddish though it had been spoken at
| >home in his youth. I'm wandering, sorry. Think of the all the hopes and
| >songs of freedom during Greek independence struggles and then the
| >dictatorships... the expansionism - the adoption of Alexander as a token
of
| >Greekness for C's sake. I was told in Ionina, which I can never spell,
that
| >Greece ends at the river bank in Belgrade
| >
| >The comparisons should not be unthinkable. They can be instructive.
Though
| >we may not like what it teaches
| >
| >L
| >
| >----- Original Message -----
| >From: "Ivy"
| >To:
| >Sent: 14 November 2002 18:03
| >Subject: Re: Padraic Fallon (or 'values')
| >
| >
| >| Dear All,
| >|
| >| I think that's something Paulin might indeed say, and something
| >| that would offend several people, not only US Jews. Many of the actions
| >| noted can also be applied to the United States- irrational emphasis
upon a
| >| special people belonging to a particular land, rebuilding the glories
of a
| >| past, state murder as an instrument of policy, and in the recent past,
| >land
| >| grabbing of native American territory , scapegoating oppressed races,
| >| official racism.. does that make the United States in the last 100
years a
| >| second Nazi Germany?
| >|
| >| Yours,
| >|
| >| Ivy
| >|
| >|
| >|
| >| >I wasn't making one, I was merely asking what he might have said. This
| >| >seems to be something he might say, and something that some US Jews
will
| >| >be offended at.
| >| >
| >| > >From: Lawrence Upton
| >| > >Reply-To: Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to
poetry
| >| > and poetics
| >| > >To: [log in to unmask]
| >| > >Subject: Re: Padraic Fallon (or 'values')
| >| > >Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:40:55 -0000
| >| > >
| >| > >the comparisons are many
| >| > >
| >| > >land grab
| >| > >
| >| > >scapegoating an opppressed race
| >| > >
| >| > >construction of a non existent past, rebuilding the supposed glories
of
| >a
| >| > >previous (pre-Roman) empire, glories supposedly deriving from racial
| >purity
| >| > >
| >| > >irrational emphasis upon a special people belonging to a particular
| >land
| >| > >
| >| > >racism as a structural device of the polity
| >| > >
| >| > >state murder as an instrument of policy
| >| > >
| >| > >what was your point?
| >| > >
| >| > >L
| >| > >
| >| > >----- Original Message -----
| >| > >From: "paul murphy"
| >| > >To:
| >| > >Sent: 13 November 2002 21:22
| >| > >Subject: Re: Padraic Fallon (or 'values')
| >| > >
| >| > >
| >| > >| has he compared the State of Israel to Nazi Germany?
| >| > >|
| >| > >|
| >| > >|
| >| > >| >From: Robin Hamilton
| >| > >| >Reply-To: Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to
| >poetry
| >| > >and poetics
| >| > >| >To: [log in to unmask]
| >| > >| >Subject: Re: Padraic Fallon (or 'values')
| >| > >| >Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:31:07 -0000
| >| > >| >
| >| > >| > > All these attacks on fantasy are getting to me.
| >| > >| >
| >| > >| >Hear, hear, Doug.
| >| > >| >
| >| > >| > > As for terry Pratchett, well
| >| > >| > > those who love Woodhouse for his completely unreal world
| >| > >| >
| >| > >| >Neat point.
| >| > >| >
| >| > >| > >seem to like
| >| > >| > > Pratchett for much the same reason. I've only read on of his
| >novels
| >| > >but
| >| > >| > > confess I was laughing so hard at parts of it my wife wondered
if
| >I
| >| > >was
| >| > >| >all
| >| > >| > > right.
| >| > >| >
| >| > >| >I've read quite a few. Some are better than others. He's not (for
| >me)
| >| > >good
| >| > >| >enough that I've gone out of my way to read them all, but he's
| >surely
| >| > >good
| >| > >| >enough that I'd pick up and read read any one I hadn't read yet.
An
| >| > >| >amazon.com recommendation would probably go, "People who bought
this
| >| > >novel
| >| > >| >also bought Douglas Adams and Ernest Bramah."
| >| > >| >
| >| > >| >As to Paulin, anyone know exactly what he's saying at Harvard at
the
| >| > >moment?
| >| > >| >An American friend sent me a despairing email containing only,
"Oh
| >God,
| >| > >| >Paulin's at it again." And there's been a renewed outbreak of
| >| > anti-Paulin
| >| > >| >posts on ALSC, on the lines of "Why are we paying money to this
| >raving
| >| > >| >anti-semite?" I've given up trying to defend Tom to Americans. If
| >he's
| >| > >| >going to keep on shooting himself in the foot, and blow away
| >perfectly
| >| > >valid
| >| > >| >points by tagging-on some lunatic throwaway comment, he can dig
the
| >| > >bullet
| >| > >| >out with his own penknife.
| >| > >| >
| >| > >| >How someone as both nice and intelligent as him can come come out
| >with
| >| > >some
| >| > >| >of the idiocies he does baffles me.
| >| > >| >
| >| > >| >Robin
| >| > >|
| >| > >|
| >| > >|
| >|
| >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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