Sorry David, I do not want to talk about this any more. I am sorry, it is
both painful and senseless, since you keep your position and I keep mine. I
tried to make myself understood as much as I could. Please, let's go back to
poetry. Thank you.

> Oh Anny
>
> communism in the States! Like Las Vegas, for instance, that monument to
> human fellowship.
>
> Pubs in the UK were, and sometimes still are, talking shops, albeit flawed
> and sometimes dangerous places, but places where people interacted. Bars
are
> different, and I do regard them as a US export in essence.
>
> But one of my stronger points was about work - I used to know a guy who
> worked for one of Ross Perrot (sp?)'s companies over here, employees were
> not only disbarred from union membership but even disclosing one's own
> salary to another employee was an offence qualifying for instant
dismissal.
> I recall too a call centre in Stoke-on-Trent where the office was
decorated
> with Americana and the workforce had to sing the Star-Spangled Banner each
> morning before starting. Let's cut this crap - the US is the most powerful
> nation in the world and wants to remain so at all costs, at the same time
it
> peddles a cultural myth of its 'innocence'. Yeah, sure, I also believe in
> flying pigs.
>
> Best
>
>
> Dave
>
>
> David Bircumshaw
>
> Leicester, England
>
> Home Page
>
> A Chide's Alphabet
>
> Painting Without Numbers
>
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Anny Ballardini" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 11:39 AM
> Subject: Re: america
>
>
> Hi Sam, thank you for that story of the bars, that is what I wanted to
tell
> David. Here in Italy bars are sort of places for teen-agers (noisy groups
> and loud music) or for couples, nothing in-between.
> It is different in the States. And I felt I lived in a community. Yes, I
> didn't look for vodoo rites or similar experiences, who knows where I
would
> be now if I did.
> Still I lead a different quality of life, and people who did not know me
> showed a greater opening, a sharing instinct, something closer to
communism
> than what the most convinced communists here in Italy have never wanted to
> put into practice.
> That is why I told David to get to the States and find out what it is all
> about. Take care, Anny
>
> > >
> > >All we are ending up with is a culture that worships Money and nothing
> else.
> >
> > As a 'culture' America is not like this.  Yes, it's the wealthiest, it's
> > materially driven and it sucks the energy of the world like a greedy
> > sleeper taking all the blanket, but you could heed you're own words and
> > realise that a 'culture' is its people, as well as their mass habits.
> >
> > It's still a pretty god-fearing country, for one.
> >
> > The thing I can't square and is getting me so riled is that AMERICANS
are
> > nothing like their representations by us dour Brits.  I know people who
> > consider themselves good fair socialists who mutter nonsenses about
> America
> > and Americans interchangeably.  'I'm not talking about the people'
> > shouldn't need to be a plea if the charge you are making is a clearly
> > political one.  But by dipping into bland cultural generalisations, you
> are
> > talking about the people. And it's wrong wrong wrong.
> >
> > Dave, you haven't noticed an anti-Americanism? I've been attuned to it
> some
> > years now, and it seems to be worsening, for sure. However, each to
their
> > own antenae ;-).  'The Left' I mean isn't a parliamentary one - but
> > there're still comrades tucked away here and there.
> >
> > It's terribly sad to see the USA excuse itself politically from the
circle
> > of nations which do believe in international law, and freedom of
> > expression, and various other qualities which the French Revolution,
(its
> > values echoed in the US constitution) and then World War etc etc swung
us
> > behind. But there was, is, and will be a sense, if you go there and look
> > openly - a strange, uncanny sense that there is something beautiful in
the
> > human experiment of the USA.  Much ugly, but something potentially
better
> > than rotting floors of class.
> >
> > Anyhow - bars are great.  Far more conversations are struck up in US
bars
> > then between strangers in English pubs (I have the statistics).  People
> > sometimes even ask each other out.  Everywhere I've been in the US feels
> > like more of a community than equivalents in GB, which has the most
> > isolating pall of mass moodiness I've ever encountered.
> >
> > Apologies if the spleen got too steamy above.
> >
> > Sam
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >Dunno if this makes sense, but anyway .....
> > >
> > >Best
> > >
> > >Dave
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >David Bircumshaw
> > >
> > >Leicester, England
> > >
> > >Home Page
> > >
> > >A Chide's Alphabet
> > >
> > >Painting Without Numbers
> > >
> > >http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Anny Ballardini" <[log in to unmask]>
> > >To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > >Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 9:33 PM
> > >Subject: Re: america
> > >
> > >
> > >Hi Lawrence,
> > >
> > >I hope I didn't offend David, and if I did I apologize.
> > >Yes, alienation, that is maybe what it is, because of many factors.
> > >
> > >On one side I teach my students to analyze consumers' problems, the
> > >environment, acoustic-light pollution, very refined talks, we take part
> in
> > >this project: www.yomag.net, but what could I possibly do if I didn't
> have
> > >the possibility of buying products, I don't even have a square meter
> garden.
> > >
> > >Do you think I could live without the heating system?
> > >
> > >Solutions are beyond me and you Lawrence, there is a lot of speculation
> and
> > >you and I are among the average victims, but we still lead a
respectable
> > >life. As I once said on this list, our future is in the hands of the
> > >financial market (and on a lower level in the petty greed of
everybody),
> > >which is all around the world, not only in the States; I would like
> > >everybody to be conscious of this. And besides that there are thousands
> of
> > >problems, personal ones, we have to face every day.
> > >
> > >I think Frederick Pollack is right in his seeing society as an engine
> > >heading towards amerlioration. I need positive thinking. Out of my
> > >experience, I found that the American society as a whole is more mature
> than
> > >the Italian one as a whole, since I lived in both places, as a child
and
> as
> > >an adult. This is all what I can say. And here I am to witness it.
> > >
> > >I don't think I am offended, I am scared. These bombs are threats,
> > >everywhere now. If intellectuals do not become aware that their
thoughts,
> > >what they write is read, and start observing reality not only through
> > >idealistic eyes, but with the consciousness that they are the ones
> spreading
> > >information and that a compromise has to be reached between The dream
and
> > >what is, then this destructive process will continue.
> > >
> > >Thank you for having listened to me, take care, Anny
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Anny
> > > >
> > > > & what can I say?
> > > >
> > > > with *some USAmericans, when one tries to distinguish between the
> > > > individuals and the govt or imperialism, they say it is the same
> > > >
> > > > & I dont think David was condemning all USAmericans
> > > >
> > > > I wouldnt support him if he was
> > > >
> > > > I feel pretty much about my own country as I do about US, so I feel
> quite
> > > > alienated  - one reason why I sometimes stress my non-English
> ethnicity
> > >and
> > > > one not properly recognised officially, just to disconnect myself
> > > >
> > > > I *don't feel offended when people slag off England / UK
> > > >
> > > > L
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Anny Ballardini" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > Sent: 11 October 2002 12:40
> > > > Subject: america
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > | what can i tell you Lawrence, i have too much respect for you,
that
> is
> > >why
> > > > i
> > > > | am answering
> > > > | you maybe didn't spend almost thirty years in a place where when
> > >anything
> > > > | went wrong it was addressed against what you consider to be your
> > > > | mother-country (i spent my first 10 years there)
> > > > | there are beautiful names in italian literature, like Calvino,
> Cesare
> > > > Pavese
> > > > | and Fenoglio, the same Montale, who did their best with Fernanda
> Pivano
> > > > and
> > > > | Mary de Rachewiltz to translate from American (and also English --
> here
> > >i
> > > > | wanted to talk to you about ugo carrega a good friend of mine in
> > > > | visual-concrete poetry and such who was the curator of dalla
grazia,
> now
> > > > an
> > > > | enormous collection at the museum of bolzano, as soon as i have
some
> > >time)
> > > > | into Italian to enrich both language and society, on the other
hand
> > >there
> > > > is
> > > > | this silly on-vogue attitude among the "intellectuals(?)" who
> despise
> > >all
> > > > | what comes from america. it is an obsession. something that hits
> deeply
> > > > the
> > > > | mass who receives information and absorbs it without processing.
> mass
> > >does
> > > > | not even know what imperialism is, and few times do
"intellectuals"
> have
> > > > | time enough to specify they are against American Imperialism, they
> just
> > > > say
> > > > | it is american... (and also on imperialism i have my own ideas)
> > > > | consider the movies, we have these silliest products coming out of
a
> > > > couple
> > > > | of italian directors - directly paid by the minister, and you go
and
> > >read
> > > > | reviews and they say they are absolutely magnificent, when a
product
> > >like
> > > > | minority report can become a sub-film because made in hollywood.
> > > > | i can objectively see they are forcing on me a position i do not
> want to
> > > > | share, i am sorry
> > > > |
> > > > | > I don't see, Anny, that David going to the states is going to
> alter
> > >the
> > > > | > truth or falsity of what he has said about imperialism
> > > > | >
> > > > | > Come to UK and you stand a good chance of being met with
> friendliness
> > > > but
> > > > | > the UK still bombs people for immoral reasons
> > > > | >
> > > > | > I have met some of the politest and apparently friendly people
in
> USA
> > > > but
> > > > | I
> > > > | > have no problem when he says _but the cultural imperialism of
the
> > >States
> > > > | is
> > > > | > undeniable_
> > > > | >
> > > > | > L
> > > > | >
> > > > | > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > | > From: "Anny Ballardini" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > | > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > | > Sent: 11 October 2002 06:03
> > > > | > Subject: Re: Billy Collins/Robert Creeley (Editor)
> > > > | >
> > > > | >
> > > > | > | when i was younger and shier, i didn't say anything, just
closed
> > > > myself
> > > > | to
> > > > | > | it all,
> > > > | > | in the last years i have started asking people, but have you
> ever
> > >been
> > > > | to
> > > > | > | the states? no, is the usual answer; so what do you know
> > > > | > | how can you possibly know and judge? therefore, please david,
> this
> > > > | coming
> > > > | > | summer (so far away i agree) see if you can get there, and
only
> > >after
> > > > | that
> > > > | > | build up your opinion, thank you
> > > > | > |
> > > > | > |
> > > > | > | > Hi Frank
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > it fascinates me that you pick up on the issue of
'prejudice',
> as
> > >if
> > > > | I,
> > > > | > as
> > > > | > | > an unemployed working-class Brit, was somehow an oppressor
of
> > >'poor'
> > > > | > | > middle-class Americans, and that somehow by even voicing any
> > > > concerns
> > > > | I
> > > > | > | was
> > > > | > | > beating down the richest and most powerful AND most selfish
> nation
> > > > in
> > > > | > the
> > > > | > | > world.
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > I know not everyone in the US is a redneck but the cultural
> > > > | imperialism
> > > > | > of
> > > > | > | > the States is undeniable, the evasion of that fact is the
> problem
> > > > with
> > > > | > US
> > > > | > | > poetry. I could say a lot of nasty things about English or
> Brit
> > > > verse
> > > > | > btw,
> > > > | > | > there's nothing partial about what I'm saying.
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > Best
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > Dave
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > David Bircumshaw
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > Leicester, England
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > Home Page
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > A Chide's Alphabet
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > Painting Without Numbers
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm
> > > > | > | > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > | > | > From: "Frank Parker" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > | > | > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > | > | > Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 2:39 AM
> > > > | > | > Subject: Re: Billy Collins/Robert Creeley (Editor)
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > david.bircumshaw:
> > > > | > | > >And it's AMERICA again, I shall of course dance around to a
> > > > | > star-spangled
> > > > | > | > >banner on a daily basis,
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > Hi David,
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > No one is waving a flag in your face. People talk about
> > > > | > | > British/Australian/Scots
> > > > | > | > poets/poetry/poetics/sensibilities, you name it, frequently
on
> > >this
> > > > | > List.
> > > > | > | > Gabe is
> > > > | > | > just speaking from his local experience and, frankly, the
> > >prejudice
> > > > | you
> > > > | > | are
> > > > | > | > showing is unwarranted and getting really old. I thought not
> even
> > >to
> > > > | > | respond
> > > > | > | > (why
> > > > | > | > perpetuate the issue?) except to say "get over it". Your
> second
> > > > | > paragraph
> > > > | > | > detracts
> > > > | > | > from the valid questions of your first paragraph.
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > Not everyone this side of the pond is a knee-jerk redneck
hell
> > >bent
> > > > on
> > > > | > | > cultural
> > > > | > | > imperialism.
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > **************************
> > > > | > | > Frank Parker
> > > > | > | > [log in to unmask]
> > > > | > | > http://users.montereyisp.com/frank
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > |
> > > > | >
> > > > |
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sam Brenton, Educational Technologist
> > Educational and Staff Development
> > Queen Mary, University of London
> > Mile End Road, London, E1 4NS
> > Tel: 020 7882 5309
> > Fax: 020 7882 3159
> > http://www.admin.qmul.ac.uk/esd/ltech
> >
>