Hi Everybody,
Jackie's comments sent a shiver down my spine as I've a feeling we are
just about to get hit by a similar problem with our SD renewal for 2003
and beyond, but then maybe I am being too pessimistic or even premature.
Since July we've been exploring the pricing for our Science Direct
renewal for 2003 and beyond. We previously were part of a NESLI deal
with Elsevier and an APPEAL license for IDEAL (Academic Press and
Harcourt Health Sciences). As you say the original quotation is not the
easiest in the world to understand and as usual with all publisher deals
confirmation and final agreement of subscriptions that should be counted
as part of the pricing is a slow and tedious process, as problems with
subscriptions not recorded as renewed when they had been etc. etc.
Numerous versions of spreadsheets passed between us until we agreed the
final proposal from Elsevier in early November. Maybe we should get a
payment from Elsevier for all the work we do sorting out our
subscription information for them. We then made a decision in principle
based on the pricing proposal from Elsevier to go e-only and sign a 3
year contract.
We then asked to see a copy of the license and that's when everything
went quiet. Until we could see the conditions and terms of the license
we couldn't place an official order with Elsevier. We still haven't got
the license, and it now appears from an email I got yesterday that there
is a problem at Elsevier's end, which seems very similar to what Jackie
has described in that their system for creating the license is
generating different totals to the one we've see in the "final" proposal
spreadsheet. I am not sure at the moment whether that means our costs
will be cheaper than we had worked out or more expensive, as that is all
the information that I have.
In the meantime we've cancelled all our print subscriptions to all
Elsevier and Harcourt Health Sciences title based on the latest pricing
proposal we received from Elsevier in early November, we couldn't hold
off informing our agents about our renewals for 2003 any more.
All great fun really, isn't it?
Cheers
Lesley
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lesley Crawshaw, Faculty Information Consultant,
Learning and Information Services,
University of Hertfordshire, Hatfield, AL10 9AB UK
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
e-mail: [log in to unmask]
phone: 01707 284662 fax: 01707 284666
web: http://www.herts.ac.uk/lis/subjects/natsci/ejournal/
list owner: [log in to unmask]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-----Original Message-----
From: An informal open list set up by the UK Serials Group
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jacqueline Knowles
Sent: 02 December 2002 17:04
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Elsevier
Hi Ros and everyone,
I just wanted to reply to this message to say you are not alone!
However, perhaps the poor customer service you have received is not only
because you are not a ScienceDirect customer.
We are currently negotiating with Elsevier for our 2003 renewal of our
ScienceDirect package, this is further complicated this year with the
inclusion of the transition licence arrangements covering our Academic
Press titles. I was sent an original quotation by Elsevier in June and
after many hours of digesting their excessively compex pricing system I
thought I'd got to grips with it. I merrily proceeded to use the figures
I had been supplied as the basis for all my negotiations and discussions
regarding renewal of this deal with the various library decision making
bodies.
A chance query two weeks ago propmted Elsevier to send me confirmation
of our 2003 quote - surprise surprise this bore no resemblance to the
one I had been previously sent. It noted a totally different Academic
Press base price and used a 'different' exchange rate (Dollar to Euro).
The final result is that my original pricing for the AP deal worked out
in June is now wrong by almost £4000 (underestimated of course!)
Elsevier themselves have admitted they are confused and 'don't know
where the figures came from for our first quote' and have said 'the
wrong exchange rate was used'. This kind of excuse simply confirms my
displeasure with their customer services.
To offer a warning to others I will say that I think I have finally got
to the bottom of this - I suppose I should be glad that at least I seem
to get responses to my emails from our sales rep. Elsevier are using a
set 2002 Dollar/Euro exchange rate for calculating their 2003 deal, in
line with what AP invoiced in 2002. My main grumble is that this fact
was never mentioned in the original communications between Elsevier and
ourselves, indeed our original quote suspiciously all makes perfect
sense if the exchange rates of the time are used.
Has anyone else seen sight of this exhange rate clause in the small
print of their documentation or had a similar experience? I would advise
anyone who is working on quotes supplied earlier in the year to double
check with Elsevier else you could be in for a nasty surprise.
I find Elsevier pricing strategies confusing at the best of times but
the last few weeks have just been a joke. Sorry for droning on but I
hope that this may help others to clarify their own positions.
Best wishes
Jackie
M Ros Doig wrote:
> Dear All
> I am sure there are many of you out there like us who are
> having/have had extreme difficulty trying to work out exactly what you
> can afford to take vis a vis Elsevier print and electronic next year.
> The process has been going on for months here and has become extremely
> frustrating because the person we are dealing with takes weeks to
> answer emails. I very much feel that because we can't afford to take
> Science Direct in its entirety then we are by default unimportant to
> Elsevier as a customer and get treated accordingly. I am very angry
> about the slowness of communication and the lack of response to
> emails. I also asked if we could have a visit and it was agreed in
> principle with some suggested dates but have I have heard nothing
> since and the day has passed. We are potentially prepared to spend
> around £45,000 pounds with them. We do not spend anywhere near this
> amount with any other publisher and this in fact is nearly 15% of our
> total print spend. The problem is really that since we can't do
> without their journals and they know it, they have us over a barrel
> with no incentive to good customer relations because they know we'll
> have to pay up. If the decison was mine I'd cancel everything tomorrow
> because I've run out of patience. Has anyone any suggestions as to how
> we might proceed? or indeed has a similar experience. Perhaps this
> list could have a Customer Service award each year for best and worse
> service. I'd nominate Ingenta for the best - they've been brilliant
> with anything I've asked and so prompt. No prizes for guessing who's
> at the bottom of my list.......
>
> Best Wishes to all
> Ros Doig
>
>
> Ros Doig
> Serials & Inter-lending Librarian
> University of Derby
> Learning Centre
> Kedleston Road
> Derby
> DE22 1GB
>
> Tel. +44 1332 591204
> Fax. +44 1332 622773
> Email M.R.Doig@Derby .ac.uk
--
_________________________________________________________
Jackie Knowles
Electronic Resources Librarian
Durham University Library, Stockton Road, Durham. DH1 3LY
Tel. No.: 0191 374 3218
Fax. No.: 0191 374 7481
E-Mail: [log in to unmask]
_________________________________________________________
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