----- Forwarded message from Automatic digest processor
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Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:00:45 -0500
From: Automatic digest processor <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: VICTORIA 19th-Century British Culture & Society
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Subject: VICTORIA Digest - 11 Nov 2002 to 12 Nov 2002 (#2002-311)
To: Recipients of VICTORIA digests <[log in to unmask]>
There are 27 messages totalling 808 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. 'French novels' in the 1880s
2. aunt judy's magazine
3. 'a double-faced merchant prince Paul' (2)
4. favourite Vanity Fair articles? (2)
5. Clutter (4)
6. Cluttered desks
7. re clutter
8. clutter
9. scenes of reading Scott (8)
10. Illustrated Police News (2)
11. Illustrated Police news
12. Stevenson--Thanks
13. Scenes of Reading Scott
14. J.S. Mill on Plato
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:20:26 -0000
From: Julie Peakman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 'French novels' in the 1880s
Jad Adams writes:
I know the original query was about French novels in the 1880s but it may be
of interest that within four years of Vizetelly's imprisonment (after his
second trial) for publishing Zola's work, the Lutetian Society was set up to
translate and publish foreign works.
Several notable 'men of the nineties' were active in translating Zola:
Teixeira de Mattos, leading figure of the Lutetian Society, translated
Pot-Bouille; Arthur Symons L'Assomoir; Ernest Dowson La Terre and Victor
Plarr Nana.
The ruse to avoid prosecution (apart from toning down some of the more
'obscene' passages) was to sell at two guineas per book, so only the upper
class could purchase them, and the society could not be accused of
corrupting 'public' morals, unlike Vizetelly who sold his books at six
shillings with illustations and five without.
The society was not prosecuted, but neither was it profitable. The 300
copies of Dowson's La Terre, for example, were not all sold.
Jad Adams
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lesley Hall" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: 'French novels' in the 1880s
> Thanks to Deana Heath for that helpful note on the increasing sales of
Zola
> as a result of censorship cases - however, I still wonder if someone who
had
> a respectable reputation to maintain would have wanted to be associated
with
> a project to translate a French novel? (as profit was presumably not the
> object)
> Lesley Hall
> [log in to unmask]
> website http://www.lesleyahall.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:33:55 +0000
From: Lucy Jakiemczuk <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: aunt judy's magazine
Hello All
I am a final year degree student doing some work on Aunt Judy's Magazine. I am
currently trying to assemble a bibliography and was wondering if the group had
any recomendations of interesting/useful texts.
Thanks in advance
Lucy Jakiemczuk
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:59:13 -0000
From: Ruth <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: 'a double-faced merchant prince Paul'
Perhaps an historian can answer another query from my relative's letter
'home'.
In a passage considering the then low opinion held of the armed services, c.
1870, he compares the ordinary soldier or sailor with:
'such Christians as a racing, poisoning Palmer, a double-faced merchant
prince Paul; a murdering Townley..'
Dr. William Palmer was hanged at Stafford in 1856 having been found guilty
of murder using strychnine.
George Townley was convicted of murder in 1863 but declared insane, and
committed suicide in 1865.
Can anyone identify the 'double-faced merchant prince'?
Ruth
Birmingham, England.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:34:18 -0400
From: Rohan Maitzen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: favourite Vanity Fair articles?
I'm putting together the final details of a graduate seminar on Victorian
fiction and ethical criticism for next term. One of our novels is Vanity
Fair and I'm wondering if list members can recommend any favourite essays or
chapters on Vanity Fair that focus on its moral or ethical qualities (we
will be reading a number of 19thC reviews and essays on Thackeray offering
moral evaluations of his novels, and I'm looking for 20thC material for us
to read in counterpoint with these). Suggestions welcome; off-list might be
best, as this inquiry may not be of much general interest
([log in to unmask]).
Rohan Maitzen
Rohan Maitzen
Associate Professor
Department of English
Dalhousie University
[log in to unmask]
http://is.dal.ca/~rmaitzen/home.html
"Incoherence is not less a defect because an imperfect foreign writer once
made use of it." (Walter Bagehot, 1864)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:57:34 -0000
From: Jill Grey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 'a double-faced merchant prince Paul'
This could refer to the banker, Sir John Dean Paul (2nd Bart ; d.1868) who,
with partners, was sentenced in 1855 to fourteen years penal servitude for
defrauding clients. (He has an entry in the DNB.)
Jill
[log in to unmask]
> In a passage considering the then low opinion held of
> the armed services, c.1870, he compares the ordinary
> soldier or sailor with: 'such Christians as a racing,
> poisoning Palmer, a double-faced merchant
> prince Paul..............'
> ..........
> Can anyone identify the 'double-faced merchant prince'?
>
> Ruth
> Birmingham, England.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:03:09 +0000
From: Emma Mason <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Clutter
Hi there,
A colleague of mine is writing a cultural study of 'clutter' and is
beginning with the image of the cluttered desk. She's not a Victorianist,
but wants to start with some nineteenth-century images of cluttered desks to
contextualise the project - can anyone think of anything? I'm stuck, apart
from the Old Curiosity Shop.
Many thanks list.
Emma Mason
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:02:42 -0000
From: Paul Barlow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clutter
There are many portraits depicting cluttered desks. E.M. Ward's painted a
series of portraits depicting writers at their desks. Most are distinctly
cluttered. They often also have overflowing wastepaper baskets. As I
remember Bulwer Lytton's reveals hum to be a poor shot with his scrunched-up
pages of rejected prose. Must have been hard for him - struggling to write
that perfect opening sentence.
The one of John Forster us in the V&A, and Macaulay's in the NPG. Most are
in private collections.
Paul Barlow
[log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:03:18 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Clutter
Emma,
Mrs. Jellyby, with ink-covered Caddy sitting nearby,
as resentful amanuensis? Surely Mr. Dick's desk must
be cluttered, although I can't recall if there is
actually an image of his desk in the novel. What
about Micawber, particularly late in the novel, when
he's working for Wickfield (and supposedly for
Wickfield & Heep)? Does Krook in Bleak House have a
desk in his lair of a shop? I'm off to teach, so I
can't look through the novels for precise images, but
they all seem more than possible.
Best wishes,
Deborah Denenholz Morse
The College of William and Mary
Quoting Emma Mason <emma.mason@CORPUS-
CHRISTI.OXFORD.AC.UK>:
> Hi there,
>
> A colleague of mine is writing a cultural study
> of 'clutter' and is
> beginning with the image of the cluttered desk.
> She's not a Victorianist,
> but wants to start with some nineteenth-century
> images of cluttered desks to
> contextualise the project - can anyone think of
> anything? I'm stuck, apart
> from the Old Curiosity Shop.
>
> Many thanks list.
>
> Emma Mason
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:52:56 -0800
From: Kate Lonsdale <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clutter
I also think of *Our Mutual Friend* as a fairly cluttered novel, and the
extended metaphor of the Circumlocution Office in *Little Dorrit* involves
a lot of paper being pushed around. Sherlock Holmes also has a notoriously
cluttered desk.
Kate
At 12:03 PM 11/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Emma,
>
>Mrs. Jellyby, with ink-covered Caddy sitting nearby,
>as resentful amanuensis? Surely Mr. Dick's desk must
>be cluttered, although I can't recall if there is
>actually an image of his desk in the novel. What
>about Micawber, particularly late in the novel, when
>he's working for Wickfield (and supposedly for
>Wickfield & Heep)? Does Krook in Bleak House have a
>desk in his lair of a shop? I'm off to teach, so I
>can't look through the novels for precise images, but
>they all seem more than possible.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Deborah Denenholz Morse
>The College of William and Mary
>
>Quoting Emma Mason <emma.mason@CORPUS-
>CHRISTI.OXFORD.AC.UK>:
>
> > Hi there,
> >
> > A colleague of mine is writing a cultural study
> > of 'clutter' and is
> > beginning with the image of the cluttered desk.
> > She's not a Victorianist,
> > but wants to start with some nineteenth-century
> > images of cluttered desks to
> > contextualise the project - can anyone think of
> > anything? I'm stuck, apart
> > from the Old Curiosity Shop.
> >
> > Many thanks list.
> >
> > Emma Mason
> >
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:13:50 -0000
From: Annette Wickham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Cluttered desks
Manet's portrait of Zola (1868, Musee d'Orsay)shows the writer sitting at a
small desk cluttered with books, paper and pinned-up images (of pictures by
Manet!) and I'm sure there's a c19th portrait of Tolstoy scribbling away at
a very cluttered desk but I can't remember who painted it I'm afraid.
William Fettes Douglas's painting 'The Alchemist' (1853, V&A Museum)
features an interesting desk cluttered with the accoutrements of alchemy.
Annette Wickham
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:16:42 -0800
From: Sheldon Goldfarb <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: favourite Vanity Fair articles?
One of the standard articles on Thackeray as a moralist is Gordon Ray's
"_Vanity Fair_: One Version of the Novelist's Responsibility" (1950),
reprinted in Arthur Pollard's 1978 casebook on the novel.
Not sure it's my favourite, since I don't agree with his basic argument
(that Thackeray turned into a moralist in the course of writing _Vanity
Fair_), but it is a standard work.
Not much else focusing on the novel's morality comes to mind: checking the
index to my 1989 bibliography of Thackeray studies, I find no entries on
morality or ethics, but several on such things as satire, cynicism, and
parody.
One other place to look might be John Sutherland's preface to the 1983
World's Classics edition of the novel, in which Sutherland says that the
central moral concern of the novel is the definition of the term
"gentleman."
You might also check some of the entries under satire; you'll find studies
of Thackeray's mockery of vanity, hypocrisy, etc.--not sure if that's quite
what you're after, but ...
Sheldon Goldfarb
[log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:12:52 -0800
From: Peter O'Neill <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: re clutter
I don't recall if the original query asks only for physical images of clutter.
If not, consider Walter Pater's lexical gem, "surplusage" from his essay
"Style": "For in truth all art does but consist in the removal of surplusage,
from the last finish of the gem-engraver blowing away the last particle of
invisible dust, back to the earliest divination of the finished work to be,
lying somewhere, according to Michelangelo's fancy, in the rough-hewn block of
stone."
Peter O'Neill
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:15:50 -0800
From: "Margot K. Louis" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: clutter
Maybe Walter Scott's _The Antiquary_ would include a description of clutter...
Margot K. Louis
[log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:29:21 -0500
From: Kristen Tate <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: scenes of reading Scott
Can listmembers recall scenes in Victorian fiction in which we see
characters reading Scott novels? I have been able to think of just one:
Molly reading _Bride of Lammermoor_ in Gaskell's _Wives and Daughters_.
But surely there are others?
I'm working through a piece on reprints of Scott novels and am thinking
about the effects of Scott's continuing presence, long after his death,
in the marketplace and in the literary imagination.
Sincerely,
Kristen Tate
[log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:34:07 -0600
From: fasick <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: scenes of reading Scott
In George Eliot's THE MILL ON THE FLOSS, doesn't Maggie Tulliver read a
Scott novel at one point? I remember her complaining that she knows that
the blond woman in the story will steal the hero's love and everyone's
admiration from the dark-haired woman. (At least, I think I remember this;
it's been a while since the last time I read it.)
Laura Fasick
>===== Original Message From VICTORIA 19th-Century British Culture & Society
<[log in to unmask]> =====
>Can listmembers recall scenes in Victorian fiction in which we see
>characters reading Scott novels? I have been able to think of just one:
>Molly reading _Bride of Lammermoor_ in Gaskell's _Wives and Daughters_.
>But surely there are others?
>
>I'm working through a piece on reprints of Scott novels and am thinking
>about the effects of Scott's continuing presence, long after his death,
>in the marketplace and in the literary imagination.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Kristen Tate
>[log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:23:12 -0500
From: Annette Federico <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: scenes of reading Scott
Jane reads Marmion in Jane Eyre--but that's a poem, not a novel. Jane Eyre
is set at the beginning of the century, and Marmion was apparently very
popular around 1810, so Bronte was doing something on purpose in using
Scott, I guess.
--On Tuesday, November 12, 2002 4:29 PM -0500 Kristen Tate
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Can listmembers recall scenes in Victorian fiction in which we see
> characters reading Scott novels? I have been able to think of just one:
> Molly reading _Bride of Lammermoor_ in Gaskell's _Wives and Daughters_.
> But surely there are others?
>
> I'm working through a piece on reprints of Scott novels and am thinking
> about the effects of Scott's continuing presence, long after his death,
> in the marketplace and in the literary imagination.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Kristen Tate
> [log in to unmask]
--
Annette R. Federico
Department of English
James Madison University
Harrisonburg VA 22807
540-568-3751
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:09:39 +1100
From: Ellen Jordan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: scenes of reading Scott
Kristen Tate asks:
Can listmembers recall scenes in Victorian fiction in which we see
characters reading Scott novels?
Lots and lots of characters in Charlotte Yonge novels read Scott. Just
of the top of my head, in the very early Scenes and Characters (1847)
the plot turns on the heroine becoming so engrossed in Scott that she
lives out her days thinking of nothing else. In Countess Kate (1862),
the title character, a child, acts out one of the poems, and there is a
strong defence of Scott as school reading in Two Sides of the Shield
(1885). Lots of chapter mottos in lots of the books also come from
Scott.
Another book, though outside the 19th century time frame, where Scott
figures is the early schoolgirl story Angela Brazil's The Third Class at
Miss Kaye's (1908).
I think we had a long discussion on Scott on Victoria some years ago.
You could check the archives.
Ellen Jordan
University of Newcastle
Australia
[log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:26:27 -0500
From: Dara Rossman Regaignon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Illustrated Police News
A student in my class, doing research on late nineteenth-century images
of violence, has stumbled across a bizarre and wonderful anthology of
pieces from the _Illustrated Police News_: it's called _'Orrible Murder:
An Anthology of Victorian Crime and Passion_. His (and therefore my)
question is this: how seriously was this newspaper taken? From the
pieces and illustrations, it seems to fall into a sensationalist camp
(to put it mildly). I would greatly appreciate any information -- or
advice for where he might find more background on the newspaper.
My thanks for the wisdom of the periodicals experts out there. This
falls decidedly out of my research area.
Best,
Dara
--
Dara Rossman Regaignon
Princeton University Writing Program
609/258-7349
[log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:41:35 -0800
From: Sheldon Goldfarb <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: scenes of reading Scott
Thackeray, in his Roundabout Paper called "On a Peal of Bells," talks at
great length of reading Scott as a boy, and his Christmas book, _Rebecca and
Rowena_, is a comic sequel to _Ivanhoe_.
However, I can't call to mind any fictional character of his reading a Scott
novel.
There are numerous secondary studies of Scott's influence in the Victorian
period (e.g., Harry Shaw's 1983 book, _The Forms of Historical Fiction: Sir
Walter Scott and His Successors_)--perhaps one of them mentions characters
reading Scott.
Sheldon Goldfarb
[log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:50:10 -0800
From: Peter O'Neill <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: scenes of reading Scott
From chapter 32 of Daniel Deronda : "Mrs Meyrick did not enter into particulars
which would have required her to say that Amy and Mab, who had accompanied
Mirah to the synagogue, found the Jewish faith less reconcilable with their
wishes in her case than in that of Scott's Rebecca." (alluding to the Jewish
character in Ivanhoe)
Peter O'Neill
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:56:04 +0100
From: neil davie <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Illustrated Police news
Hello Dara,
I don't have a copy to hand to check its usefulness for your specific =
inquiry, but an obvious place to look for background on publications =
like the "Illustrated Police News" (of which there were many) is *Crime =
in Victorian Britain: an annotated bibliography from nineteenth-century =
British magazines*, by E.M. Palmegiano (Westport, Conn., Greenwood =
Press. 1993).=20
Your student might be interested in a speech given to the "National =
Association for the Promotion of Social Science" in 1872 by one =
R.Reynolds Fox, which expresses clearly "respectable" attitudes to =
publications like the "Illustrated Police News". The title of his talk - =
"On the best means of suppressing the low, cheap, literarature of the =
day" gives a good idea of where Fox stood on the issue! He refers to =
"coarse and sensational press-matter, and equally objectionable =
illustrations, the object of which was to gild over vice, and present it =
in attractive and most dangerous colours to the young of both sexes, on =
whose minds it often exercised the most disasterous influences." (NAPSS =
Transactions, 1872, p.236).
I've got some other examples which I can pass on to your student, if he =
would like to contact me directly off-list.
Best wishes,
Neil
Neil Davie, Universit=E9 Paris 7, Paris, France.
([log in to unmask])
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:33:42 -0800
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Illustrated Police News
Dara,
The BL has copies of The Illustrated Police News. The paper is not unlike a
whole raft of 19th and 20th century papers, mainly aimed at the barbershop
and tavern crowd, dealing with murder and sporting news. IPN should not be
taken seriously, although many of the events it reported on actually
happened (IPN covered the Ripper murders and undoubtedly made big money
during that brief period. Many papers of the IPN ilk either started out as,
or morphed into, sporting papers. IPN became Sporting Record in 1938, and
later became the New Greyhound and Sporting Record.
Studying IPN and other such papers is a fascinating pursuit, but one lined
with traps. They are artifacts, and people read them, and undoubtedly many
of the readers believed some or all of the contents. But the readers likely
didn't define more than a tiny (yet still interesting) group (not really big
enough to be worthy of the title subculture). The danger is in seeing too
much in these artifacts. I'd hate to have my culture (or subculture?) in
late 20th-early 21st century America defined in any major way by The
Enquirer or its kin. Imagine some 22nd century scholar solemnly intoning
that the fear of space aliens taking over the Congress directed the daily
lives of post-modern culture? Or that Jon-Benet's unsolved murder and the
great OJ escape were the turning point for pre-Iraq America? Or...wait a
minute. Could I be on to something?
richard d. fulton
[log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:49:01 EST
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Stevenson--Thanks
Many thanks to Richard Dury, Donald Kerr, Richard Nemesvari, Lawrence
Phillips, Jamie Ridenhour, Richard Floyd, Jill Grey, Valerie Gorman, and
Carol Digel, for the information and sources on Stevenson, much of which has
already been put to use.
I'm very grateful for the help.
Best,
Scott McEathron
S. Illinois University
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:41:20 EST
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Scenes of Reading Scott
We have recently posted F.O.C. Darley's illustration "Miss Wardours Escape".
This was the frontispiece of the 1857 Ticknor and Fields edition of The
Antiquary. Nobody is reading and there isn't any clutter but it is lovely.
Darley also illustrated Lady of the Lake.
http://www.angelfire.com/de/focdarley/#wordors
Carol Digel
[log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:17:15 -0600
From: Mollie Sandock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: J.S. Mill on Plato
A quick question from an overworked teacher of a first-year
humanities survey:
Can anyone tell me about John Stuart Mill's opinion of Plato,
particularly of Socrates' principles in the Crito? Did Mill ever
write specifically about Socrates' claims that one must always obey
the law if one could not persuade one's city/state to change the
law?
Thanks in haste,
Mollie Sandock
--------------------------------
Mollie Sandock
English Department
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383
(219) 464-5756
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:10:58 -0500
From: "Lelia L. Phillips" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: scenes of reading Scott
If you're interested in American novels, Meg March reads _Ivanhoe_ in
_Little Women_.
--Lee
--
******************************
Lee Phillips
[log in to unmask]
"They are surely happy," said the prince, "who have all these
conveniences, of which I envy none so much as the facility with which
separated friends interchange their thoughts." --Samuel Johnson,
_Rasselas_
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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:26:39 -0800
From: Peter O'Neill <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: scenes of reading Scott
In Eliot's *Daniel Deronda* (ch. 46), it is Mrs Meyrick, once again, who turns
to Scott--this time *Old Mortality*--as her literary point of reference. Early
on in this chapter, Mrs. Meyrick, wary of Mordecai's "Jewish pertinacity,"
associates the anticipated fanatical rhetoric of Mordecai with the Covenanters
of Scott's *Old Mortality.* On one level, Mrs. Meyrick reads Mordecai and his
Judaism as another part of the romance of Mirah's story, but a part which, she
secretly hoped, could be edited out. After all, in Mrs. Meyrick's mind,
Mordecai "was a brother who would dip Mirah's mind over again in the deepest
dye of Jewish sentiment."
Peter O'Neill
[log in to unmask]
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End of VICTORIA Digest - 11 Nov 2002 to 12 Nov 2002 (#2002-311)
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