[sorry for the first incomplete one, I hit the send button to quickly]

Dear Allstat-People,

this was my most successful ALLSTAT-query so far, at least in numbers
of
replies (21).
The topic seems to be sufficiently complex that even that large number
of opinions is not enough to generate something near consensus:

Although the following can be said:
- most people would agree, that local degrees should not be tranferred
to other countries degrees, but rather be kept as they are, or not
given at all in scientific publications. Alas, the publisher sometime
wants it differently.
- The UK and the USA are more different in their degrees than I
thought. This is especially true for the medical profession.
- I have been following Graeme Ambler's advice (see below).


Copies of the replies follow:
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"Allan, Teresa" <[log in to unmask]>
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An MD is somebody who has carried out an unsupervised piece of
research in
the medical field.  It is possible to get PhDs in the UK in medical
areas but they are titled PhD not MD.  The MD doesn't have the same
sort of
formal training that PhDs have to undergo.  However, medics think that
an MD
is worth more than a PhD as it is unsupervised.  I disagree as they
vary
in quality.  So if your PhD in medicine is a supervised degree and has
formal training then I would insist that PhD be used.

Teresa

Teresa Allan
Lecturer in Medical Statistics
Department of Primary Care & General Practice
Primary Care Clinical Sciences Building
University of Birmingham
Edgbaston
B15 2TT
Tel:    0121 414 7398
Fax:   0121 414 6571
email: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
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Kevin McConway <[log in to unmask]>
-------------------------------------------------------------
I'm no expert on this, but a problem with M.D. is that it means
different things in the UK and US. In the US all (perhaps there are a
few exceptions?) people who work as physicians or surgeons have the
degree of M.D., and I don't think it requires them to do research,
certainly not as much as a UK PhD or the German equivalents. In the
UK,
an M.D. is a research degree, in medicine, similar to a PhD. Most
physicians and surgeons don't have it. (The situation is bizarre in
many
ways. Most people in the UK refer to physicians as 'doctors', and
address them as 'Doctor So-and-So', but actually they have no degree
called 'doctor'. Also, in UK hospitals, junior surgeons are called
'Doctor So-and-so', but consultant surgeons are called 'Mr (or Mrs)
So-and-So', while consultant physicians are 'Doctor So-and-So'. This
is
for historical reasons from when the two professions were completely
separate. The degree in surgery at (for example) the University of
London, corresponding to an MD, is the MS, Master of Surgery, and
although this requires 3 years full-time research (or equivalent) on
the
same basis as a PhD or MD it is not called 'doctor'.) There is nothing
very logical about this.

In short, unless the journal proposes to put in a long explanation of
what they mean by M.D. in your colleague's case, it will be ambiguous,
because it depends on whether they mean a US or a UK M.D. (If it were
me, I would try to persuade them to stick to the German titles.)

Regards,

Kevin McConway
Senior Lecturer in Statistics
Department of Statistics
The Open University
Walton Hall
Milton Keynes MK7 6AA, UK

Phone: +44-1908-653676
Fax:      +44-1908-652140
email:   [log in to unmask] 
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Irene Petersen <[log in to unmask]>
-------------------------------------------------------------
I understand your confusion - I am from Denmark and we also have
another system 
than the British and American - However your colleague should have no
reason to 
worry about a M.D. It is quite similar to a PhD (in Britain) - I have
a copy of 
my boss MD report on my desk and the format is pretty much the same as
my PhD 
report (both are from University of London). I think the difference is
that you 
are expected to work more independently when you do a MD compared to a
PhD.

Irene
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"R. Allan Reese" <[log in to unmask]>
-------------------------------------------------------------
MD is a very different qualification from PhD. I have never before
heard
of a suggestion to "translate" qualifications in a journal. Why do it?
It
sounds a stupid idea.

R. Allan Reese                       Email: [log in to unmask]
Associate Manager GRI                Direct voice:   +44 1482 466845
Graduate School                      Voice messages: +44 1482 466844
Hull University, Hull HU6 7RX, UK.   Fax:            +44 1482 66436 
-------------------------------------------------------------


Carole Cull <[log in to unmask]>
-------------------------------------------------------------
In UK there is a distinction between MD and PhD (or DPhil - as in
Oxford). The MD is a two year degree by thesis (usually) while
the PhD is 3 years by thesis. In UK then, your colleagues should
all be PhD, but the ones with clinical qualifications might like
to stick out for "MD, PhD", or "MB, PhD", or whatever is the
highest medical qualification they hold. You will often see in UK
that MRCP or FRCP (Member or Fellow fo the Royal College of
Physicians - or of an equivalent clinical institution) is used
instead of MM, ChB which are the first degrees, and this signals
that the clinician is working in the clinical field as well as
doing academic research. Often, indeed usually, it is important
to identify the medically qualified from the 'pure' scientists
and these distinctions help.

Hope this helps.

Carole

(an oddity working as a statistician by with a PhD in
physiology!)
-------------------------------------------------------------


"Andy Vail" <[log in to unmask]>
-------------------------------------------------------------
In the UK, the degree of MD is a research degree similar in style to 
the PhD.  MD is only available to those qualified in 
medicine/surgery.  In practice MD degrees are hugely variable in 
quality, but generally lower in academic standing than a PhD.

I think, but am not at all sure, that the US use MD differently and 
assign it to anybody qualified in medicine/surgery.
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"E M M McColl" <[log in to unmask]>
-------------------------------------------------------------
In the UK, MD is a higher research degree.  Some medical doctors
choose
to do an MD, some a PhD.  Nowadays, usually those intending to pursue
a
largely clinical career go for the MD, while those aiming for an
academic career do a PHD (but that is only a general rule, and many of
my academic colleagues have MDs).  However, in other countries, MD may
be the initial degree.  I guess it is all the more complicated because
in the US and Canada, you cannot go directly into medical school and
training as a doctor on leaving high school (which is the normal route
in the UK and Ireland, and I believe in much of Europe).  Instead, you
must first get a bachelor's degree (in any subject, I believe, though
I
would guess that most people go for a degree in the sciences).  On
graduating with that first degree, you than go to med school.  So in a
sense their qualification as a doctor is a higher degree, but not a
research degree.

Its all very confusing, isn't it!

Elaine McColl
National Primary Care Career Scientist
Centre for Health Services Research
University of Newcastle upon Tyne
21 Claremont Place
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE2 4AA
United Kingdom
Phone: +44 (0)191 222 7260
Fax: +44 (0)191 222 6043
e-mail: [log in to unmask]
-------------------------------------------------------------



Peter M Lee <[log in to unmask]>
-------------------------------------------------------------
In the UK it is a research degree although one which usually involves
LESS
research than a PhD.  Meidcal studies result in the award of the
degrees
of MB, ChB (Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery).  I THINK
that
in America the MD is awarded to all who complete medical studies.

Peter M lee
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"David LB Schwappach" <[log in to unmask]>
-------------------------------------------------------------
Ihre Anfrage ist sehr interessant. Ich personlich habe mich mal
ausfuhrlich damit beschaftigt, und versucht, von irgendwo eine
verbindliche Antwort zu bekommen, was ausgesprochen schwierig war.
In diesem Zusammenhang hatte ich mal ein ausfuhrliches Gesprach mit
jemandem von der DFG (Name ist mir leider nicht mehr gegenwartig).
Dort
wurde mir berichtet, dass ein Dr.med. auf jeden Fall *kein* PhD ist,
sondern, wie von Ihnen auch angefuhrt, ein MD. Das liegt daran, dass
die
normalen deutschen Doktorarbeiten in der Medizin bekanntermassen nicht
mit denen in anderen naturwissenschaftlichen, oder sogar
geisteswissenschaftlichen Fachern vergleichbar sind, wobei das im
Einzelfall naturlich anders sein kann. Anders ist es mit dem
Dr.rer.med., hierbei handelt es sich je nach Themenschwerpunkt um
einen
PhD in Okonomie, Pharmakologie,Medizintechnik oa.

Vielleicht hilft es Ihnen weiter.
Herzliche Grusse
David Schwappach
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"Angus S. MacDonald" <[log in to unmask]>
-------------------------------------------------------------
It depends on the country. In the USA, MD often means the basic
medical
qualification, i.e. not a research degree. In the UK, the basic
medical
qualification is a Bachelor's degree, MB ChB or MB BS, but carries the
honorific title "doctor", and MD is a genuine research degree.

Angus Macdonald
-------------------------------------------------------------



"Hotz, T." <[log in to unmask]>
-------------------------------------------------------------
Ich habe gerade eine britische Kollegin zu diesem Thema befragt. Die
Antwort (für Großbritannien) ist etwa wie folgt:

Ein fertig studierter Mediziner trägt den Titel "Dr." ohne "MD" oder
"PhD". Falls er eine wissenschaftliche Arbeit als Disseration
einreichen will, so kann er dies für "MD" oder "PhD" tun. Eine "MD
thesis" ist üblicherweise kürzer, weniger ausführlich und zeitintensiv
und häufig klinisch im Vergleich zu einer "PhD thesis". Erst nach
Annahme dieser Arbeit (und viele promovieren nie oder erst sehr spät)
ist er "MD" oder "PhD".

Im Gegensatz dazu ist der deutsche "Dr.med." eher Teil der Ausbildung
in dem Sinne, dass die damit verbundene Promotionsschrift häufig das
Niveau einer Diplomarbeit in anderen Wissenschaften (z.B. Psychologie,
Biologie etc.) hat. Es ist also für einen "Dr.med." kein Schaden, als
"MD" bezeichnet zu werden, eher umgekehrt.

Ich hoffe, damit zur Klärung der Frage beigetragen zu haben.

Grüße

Thomas

Thomas Hotz
Research Associate in Medical Statistics
University of Leicester
United Kingdom

Department of Epidemiology and Public Health
22-28 Princess Road West
Leicester
LE1 6TP
Tel +44 116 252-5410
Fax +44 116 252-5423
-------------------------------------------------------------


"Alun Pope" <[log in to unmask]>
-------------------------------------------------------------
In Australia we have a Federal Government office which has extensive
experience of equivalence of qualifications, and should be able to
answer your question.  Perhaps you have a similar office in Germany?

How does your university assess qualifications for entry of foreign
students?  Perhaps they can help.  Australian universities use our
government agency.

Hope this helps,
Alun
-------------------------------------------------------------


Graeme Ambler <[log in to unmask]>
-------------------------------------------------------------
The most accurate thing would probably be to convert all but the
physician's 
to PhD and convert the physician's to M.D., Ph.D. (i.e. both), as you
are 
correct in your assessment of the status of M.D.  A similarly
qualified 
person in the U.S. would have had to study for a M.D. AND a Ph.D.
separately 
(though there are a few "joint" courses).

I hope that this is helpful,

Graeme.
-------------------------------------------------------------


"Paul Seed" <[log in to unmask]>
-------------------------------------------------------------
An MD is a graduate degree, by thesis, like a PhD, and nominally 
of equal quality.
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"Nick Cox" <[log in to unmask]>
-------------------------------------------------------------
I think it quite appalling that a foreign journal
should have the impertinence to insist that
you translate these degrees in this way
and I would decline to cooperate.

But note that M.D. is not the same the
whole world over. In the U.K. it is
a research degree possessed by
relatively few. The U.S. situation differs.

Nick
-------------------------------------------------------------


"Philip McShane" <[log in to unmask]>
-------------------------------------------------------------
This causes a lot of confusion. In the US and countries which follow
it, an 'MD' is a medical qualification. It is not a PhD; there are for
example programmes which specifically give both.

In Britain and I think also in some Commonwealth countires (eg India)
the basic medical qualification is a Bachelor's degree: MB, ChB. 

That is followed by specialist qualifications (Membership of Royal
College of whatever). So 'doctors' in Britain do not generally
progress doctorates!

Here an M.D. (or sometimes MS for surgeons) is a research degree which
normally takes 2 years. So it is less than a PhD but they don't like
to be reminded of that!

It is possible for medical doctors to do PhD's and many of them do. It
is also possible for them to do a Master's degree (M.Sc, M.Phil). The
terminology for Master's degree's is even more confusing here; it
depends on the University.

The usual research degree is a Ph.D. ( or D.Phil) which takes 3 years
and involves writing a thesis. A Doctor of Science (D.Sc) and as far
as I know other fields is a very advanced degree awarded on the basis
of work in the field. It is not necessary to have a Ph.D. but I
suppose it is usual. 

To add to the fun, surgeons in Britain like to be called 'Mr' (=Herr)
or 'Miss' (=Fraulein- even when married) and not 'doctor'. I have 2
supervisors who are surgeons; one with a MD and one with a PhD. I
called them both 'Mr' except that one has now been made a Professor as
well.

I hope this clarifies a very confusing situation.

Regards

Phil

Phil McShane
Nuffield dept of Surgery
John Radcliffe Hosp
Headington
Oxford 
OX3 9DU
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"CHASALOW, SCOTT [AG/1000]" <[log in to unmask]>
-------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds to me like Dr. med. should be equivalent to "MD/PhD".  What is
the
German title for a physician who has NOT done a PhD thesis?  

-Scott
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"Smith, David W." <[log in to unmask]>
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An American or Canadian MD is not a thesis degree.  It requires four
years of study after a bachelor's degree.  With some additional
supervised clinical experience, one year as far as I know, an MD can
be licensed to practice medicine.  Some physicians go on to get a
Ph.D. in a specific discipline, such as physiology or molecular
biology.

By the way, the standard advanced research degree in the US is the
Ph.D.  This became standard in about 1870.  This  is the most common
degree that requires a substantial amount of research and it is the
highest degree given.  The common element is that a thesis or
dissertation is required that makes an original contribution to
knowledge.  That is, does research that is published.  Without
publication, it's not a contribution to knowledge.  

Other doctoral degrees are granted, but it can be hard to tell if they
are "earned," that is, require a thesis or dissertation without asking
the University that gave the degree.  Some universities grant a D.Sc.,
Doctor of Science, as a research degree but this is not as common.

In America, almost everything depends on the granting University,
there are no universal standards.  They operate under individual rules
that are made by their governing boards and are sometimes also
governed by a charter from their state.

Most American dissertations were published by a company called
University Microfilms in Ann Arbor, Michigan.  Anyone can buy a copy
of a dissertation or thesis from them, if they published it.

To my knowledge, there is no American MD that is earned in the the
sense that it requires a published thesis or dissertation that
consumes a significant period of time.

Thus, an American equivalent to Dr. med. doesn't appear to exist
unless it is also a Ph.D. 

Regards, 

David Smith 

David W. Smith, Ph.D., M.P.H. 

Associate Professor of Biometry 

School of Public Health - San Antonio Campus 
University of Texas 
7703 Floyd Curl Dr., Mail Code 7976 
San Antonio, TX  78229-3900 
-------------------------------------------------------------


"John Sorkin" <[log in to unmask]>
-------------------------------------------------------------
In the United States, the requirments for an MD degree vary from
institution to institution, but in general an MD, unlike a PhD does
not
require writing, or defending a dissertation. An MD degree is
generally
granted by and academic institution based on completing a perscribed
course of study. Having and MD degree does not allow one to practice
Medicine. In order to practice one needs a license (granted on a state
by state basis). In order to qualify for the license, one must sit a
professional license examination. 

John 

John Sorkin MD, PhD
Chief, Biostatistics and Informatics
Baltimore VA Medical Center GRECC and
University of Maryland School of Medicine Claude Pepper OAIC
410-605-7119 
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"Florian Vogl" <[log in to unmask]>
-------------------------------------------------------------
I cannot answer your question but I think one problem is the degree of
equivalence of 
degrees between countries. 

As far as I understood (being a German Dr.med. myself, and having
discussed this 
very issue with many scientists and physicians, both British and
American), you get the 
Doctor of Medicine degree (MD) upon successful completion of medical
school (even 
without a thesis). The requirements for a PHD degree, however, are
very different 
between countries. In GB, one can obtain the PhD after 3 years of
research work, and 
writing and defending a thesis (I have no doubt that this should be
equivalent to most 
German doctoral degrees in science; medicine may be different in some
cases, see 
below). In the US one has to enroll in a PhD program for at least 4-5
years (I think) and 
additionally take courses. 

Now consider that medical students in Germany  may start to work on
their thesis 
during their medical studies, and often just do a little work to be
awarded the title "Dr." 
(a colleague of mine earned his Dr. med. for a 3 months' work,
including writing the 
thesis -- whilst others worked on experimental projects for 5 years).
So, how can these 
degrees compare??

The problem gets even more sophisticated if you consider that e.g. in
Italy (and some 
other European countries) students automatically are awarded a
doctoral degree upon 
graduation in any discipline without writing a thesis at all!

I would be very interested in hearing what you get as replies from
others and would like 
to ask you to send a copy (to me or the list). Thank you.

BW,
Florian


PS: There is the "Zentrale Anerkennungsstelle fuer Hochschulgrade" (or
"Amt fuer 
Anerkennung...", I don't remember the exact name) at the U of Bonn.
Maybe you can 
get some information there.
-------------------------------------------------------------


"Mariabeth Silkey" <[log in to unmask]>
-------------------------------------------------------------
Your colleague is correct to want to maintain the distinction between
the degrees. 

At least in the US there is a disctinction between M.D. and M.D. Ph.D. 

The former has graduated from Medical School and is licensed to
practice; If the graduate has a medical specialty, that is added to
the title. 

the M.D. Ph.D. finished Medical School and then also went on to write
a Doctoral Thesis. M.D. Ph.D.'s, called medical research doctors in
the US, work primarily in research. Many have never entered a clinical
practice. They are also to be distinguished from Medical Clinical
faculty, those practicing doctors who also train new doctors at the
university. 


Cheers,

Maria Silkey
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-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------
 Dietrich Alte (Statistician, Dipl.-Stat.)
 - SHIP // Project Management -
 University of Greifswald - Medical Faculty
 Institute of Epidemiology and Social Medicine
 Walther-Rathenau-Str. 48, D-17487 Greifswald, Germany
 URL        http://www.medizin.uni-greifswald.de/epidem/
 Phone      +49(0)3834-867713, fax ++49(0)3834-866684
 Email      [log in to unmask]
-------------------------------------------------------------