I suppose we should have ignored Pearl Harbor too, huh? Had we, Hegel would
have thought us a bunch of jerks then, and would, I suspect, similarly
regard your pacifist rationalizations for terrorism now.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hancock Phil [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 11:07 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: debate platform and justice
>
> Hello Mike
>
> While I understand you anger and frustration, I worry that in order to
> justify or intellectualise your feelings you feel the need to invoke 19th
> century philosophy on the way. The legacy for Nietzsche's work of the
> irrationalism of the 1930's has already left a permanent scare on our
> intellectual culture.
>
> For Hegel, the real is only rational in a real sate of rationality to
> paraphrase the oft used, but seldom understood line. This is clearly not
> the
> case at this point in world history. Nor can his system be used to defend
> the proposition that A=A and B=B. The west (not just the USA) is both a
> force of criminality as well as justice, these terrorists are both
> innocent
> and guilty. The world is not monochromatic whatever the media is trying to
> tell us. Nor are people monadic; we are not simply self-directing.
> Consider
> the implications of your reasoning. If the western alliance accidentally
> kills another ten thousand innocent civilians, will it take
> responsibility,
> or say it was provoked and it can't be held responsible?
>
> If you want revenge against the bastards that killed thousands of your
> countrymen (as well as others from all over the world), and you see that
> as
> the grounds for a just war with all its potential consequences, I can
> understand and, while disagreeing, accept that. However, please don't
> tarnish even more the western philosophical tradition to justify it
> (unless
> of course you want to invoke the man as a nationalist and anti-Semite, but
> I
> wouldn't have thought so).
>
> Best wishes
>
> Philip
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael CHUMER
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: 9/14/01 1:11 PM
> Subject: Re: debate platform and justice
>
> I think the time has come where people of any persuasion or belief
> should
> be strong enough to admit that they and only themselves are responsible
> for their actions. Yet many on this list use this convoluted logic that
> suggests the perpetrators of these acts and those who direct and
> control
> them are in someway justified. "It is not their fault" you say, "but the
> evil Americans and their invasive policies".
>
> In Stace's explication of Hegel's logic the following can be found about
> justice. And in this case justice will be done. I quote as follows:
>
> "The criminal is a rational being whose essence is universality; the
> animal is not. It is therefore the inherent right of the criminal to be
> treated as a rational and universal being. Hence the crime cannot be
> regarded as a mere objectionable act , as dog's delinquencies may, but
> must be viewed as an affirmation of a law which the criminal wills to be
> universal. Violence, therefore must be punished by violence. For the
> criminal has by his own act asserted the law of violence. It is his act
> as
> a rational being that his act should be taken as importing a universal,
> as
> erecting violence into law. It is the criminal therefore who punishes
> himself. It is his own will. He has asserted violence as his law and the
> application of this law to himself is justice" Stace, 1955, The
> Philosophy
> of Hegel, p.390
>
> There are those on the list who will substitute the term "USA" for the
> term "criminal " I substitute the term "terrorist" for the term
> "criminal". Recent polls indicate that 94% of those Americans polled
> support a declaration of war. I am sorry but I feel that we are sitting
> on
> the tip of the "iceberg of violent retribution" which represents the
> view
> of justice in the mind's of Americans as quoted above. Debate if you
> will,
> exercise in American bashing if you must, but realize that life as we
> know
> it will change dramatically in the next few months because of these
> horrific acts.
>
> Mike Chumer
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