Jason,
You make some very good points. But I think you
misunderstand... I'm not arguing against advanced degrees in
PT. I'm arguing that for entry level programs to
arbitrarily begin awarding doctorates is not the best way in
which to advance our profession.
I believe that a much better plan is to advance post
graduate residencies and specialization programs. You are
correct that very few PT's ever pursue specialization. This
is because 1) it is not required by the profession, and 2)
there are not enough residency programs out there to fulfill
any requirement for specialization (not only that, but
residency is not required for specialization).
Upping the ante to doctorate does not neccessarily lead to
better PT's. Much of that depends on the teaching abilities
of the individual schools. Our profession is not doing
enough to ensure that Master's level programs are fully
exceeding BS levels of education. So how am I to expect we
will fair any better with doctorates?
If we want to act like physicians, then we should expect
to be trained like them. Doctors are severely limited to
the scope of their practice unless they specialize. We
could focus our efforts towards expanding and eventually
requiring specialization of all PT's who want to practice
outside a limited area.
No longer should PT's be considered "jack of all trades,
master of none." If we want to be doctors, then we need to
build a better infrastructure first. Then I'll be
comfortable awarding new grads the title "doctor."
Once again, good arguments Jason!
Warm regards
Geoff
> Geoff,
>
> No one is saying that a professional DPT new graduate will
> have better > skills than someone with a bachelor's who has 20 years of
> experience. > What the APTA is trying to do, as I understand it, is to
> simply draw a > new starting line. People in the current field can either
> choose to > keep up with the degree advancements or not. Why try to
> limit the > growth of the profession? Why should we voluntarily
> choose to only > award ourselves degrees other than a doctorate? No one
> but us are > arguing that we stay at the master's and bachelor's
> level. If the > profession had listened to these arguments, then we would
> still be at > the bachelor's level, or even certificates. Why don't we
> deserve > doctorates when we come out of school?
>
> What do you think is the percentage of PT's in the USA
> that actually do > specialize and obtain a board certification? I bet no
> more than 1-3%. > I don't think that it's reasonable to expect that enough
> of us will > specialize in order to advance the skill level and
> perception of our > profession. I myself believe in specialization and will
> go after OCS > but most of us simply aren't going to go that far. BTW
> OCS gets roundly > criticized often for not having a residency requirement,
> and the APTA > recently lowered the minimum hour requirement needed to
> sit for the > exam. I can't speak towards NCS, but OCS isn't a perfect
> product. > However, that does not make it a meritless pursuit.
>
> Physician's come out of school with a Doctorate of
> Medicine. Their > professional title is Physician. Their professional title
> is not > Doctor. That is their degree level. Their body of
> knowledge has > boundaries. They are at the top because we and society as
> a whole, give > them that status. They are not omnipotent. Why are we
> fearful of > having doctorates and challenging the status quo? Is our
> "rightful > place" always going to be characterized by following their
> orders? >
>
> If we stay at the bachelor's and master's level, the
> playing field will > never be level. That much we already do know. With a
> Doctorate that > could change. I believe that treating by referral from a
> professional > who has a higher degree/status level can create an ethical
> dilemma. We > will not be up front with our professional opinions if our
> opinion is in > conflict with our referral source. We are afraid that our
> opinion will > not be respected, be deemed a loose cannon and
> subsequently loose > referrals......i.e. mortgage the future of the clinic for
> an opinion > about a patient. If we level the playing field and
> practice > autonomously, then we have a greater chance of our
> opinions about our > body of knowledge being respected.
> --------------------------------------------
> Jason Steffe, PT, MS, MTC
> Physiotherapy Associates
> 1901 Phoenix Blvd, Suite 205
> College Park, GA. 30349
> Ph: 770-907-1023
> Fax:770-907-5608
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Geoff
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2001 1:15 AM
> Subject: Re: DPT
>
>
> Doug,
> In response to your response:
>
> >Have you ever added up the credits for the BS PT
> programs and > compared
> those
> >credits with other BS degrees? I know the credits for
> my BS degree > should
> >have gotten me very close to a MS degree. That is the
> "official" > credits.
> >Many of my courses did not offer the full number of
> credits the > course
> >deserved.
> This is very true, many entry level Master's programs
> are simply BS > programs
> with a little extra research added.
>
> >Yes. The title society uses for an autonomous health
> care > practitioner is
> >Doctor. While many of us currently practice
> autonomously that level > of
> >practice is not recognized readily by society. The DPT
> should go a > long way
> >to change that perception.
> I disagree. The title society uses Doctor for is a
> physician (or > academian
> in the case of PhD). I do not agree with chiros and
> podiatrists using > the
> designation "Doctor" any more than PT's. Go ask anyone
> on the street > what
> their perception of the word "doctor" is. They
> certainly won't tell > you
> "autonomous health care practitioner." The higher
> designation will > only be
> perceived within our profession, not the public. They
> will see us > still as
> PT's.
>
> >Comparing entry level education over a span of many
> years is dicey. > The
> same
> >can be said for MDs, DPM, PharmD, AudD etc.
> True, but we are talking perceptions here. The
> perception of any > other
> profession of us is the same, regardless of degree
> attained. Take the
> current state of things... does anyone place the
> designation MPT above > BS PT
> anywhere but within our own ranks? Not in my office.
> We have one > fellow
> who has been working for over 30 years who could make
> any NCS or PhD > look
> like a school kid with the extent of his knowledge
> (myself included). > His
> highest degree? BS PT.
>
> >Please explain. My understanding is MDs are awarded a
> clinical > doctoral
> >degree.
> They are awarded the title of "doctor" as a physician,
> but their > education
> level is still accepted as being at a Master's level
> (except for the > few PhD
> MD programs out there). Your statement brings up an
> interesting point
> however... Because we are now awarding entry level
> DPT's, how is any
> consumer supposed to determine accurately the expertise
> of their > therapist?
> Isn't it confusing and misleading to use the same
> terminology to > describe an
> entry level therapist as one who has gained his DPT
> through the usual
> progression (BS then MPT then DPT)?
>
> > This statement seems to be a contradiction. The Doctor
> title is the
> highest
> >title in society for a profession. The MD is the
> biggest and boldest
> >designation.
> As it should be. We do not posess the skills and
> education of > physicians,
> nor should we be claiming to be their equals in the
> medical world. I > think
> this is the mistake many chiros have made in the past.
>
> >Legally and professionally once you enter a profession
> you have > earned the
> >rights and privileges associated with that profession.
> No profession, > to my
> >knowledge, has ever advanced its education and status
> without
> >"grandfathering" the people in the profession the
> continued right to
> >practice.
> Correct, but we are not "grandfathering" others in the
> profession to > the DPT
> designation. Thus, there will be a serious rift between
> DPT's and > lesser
> degree therapists working in the field for an awful long
> time. If > what is
> being said is true (doubtful) and DPT does raise the
> perception of the
> public to us as advanced practitioners, then we risk
> alienating those > with
> the most experience and clinical expertise.
>
> >The level and type of education that quality DPT
> programs are doing > now far
> >exceeds my BSPT education. It has been my professional
> responsibility > to
> >continue to stay current with appropriate practice in
> 2001 and > beyond.
> This may be true, but look at where you are at now
> compared to when > you
> started years ago. While it is appropriate to continue
> to make the
> preliminary education better and better, most talented
> PT's will still > be a
> step ahead of the academic programs, as their
> curriculums tend to lag > a bit
> behind current research and developing practice. I will
> concede, > however,
> that many practicing therapists do not stay current and
> fall behind > the
> times... in this case perhaps the higher standards of a
> DPT program > may
> outdistance these therapists, but won't replace their
> clinical > experience.
>
> >See above. Degree granting institutions have a
> responsibility to > award
> >degrees consistant with the credits earned.
> I don't mean to mislead you, I'm all for DPT and MPT
> programs as a
> continuing advancement of base education. It is the
> entry level > programs
> that I question.
>
> >This is not the case. The scope of practice is the
> same, DPT or not.
> It does place DPT's in a precarious situation, however.
> They do not > posess
> the talents or skills of an experienced practitioner,
> but they carry a > title
> that places them above and beyond all other therapists.
>
> >I don't see how a DPT after a BS would be more costly
> than a MS after > a BS.
> >I have not done an analysis. If you have I'd be
> interested in what > you
> >found.
> Advancements in degrees are always an excuse to raise
> tuition. Just > look at
> the average cost of tuition going from BHS to MPT in the
> US. In some > cases
> it is 3 or 4 times as much.
>
> >I disagree. As noted above we all have a responsibility
> to stay > current. If
> >we choose to do this by pursuing a tDPT fine. There are
> a myriad of > other
> >ways of staying current. No matter what way you choose
> you will have > to put
> >the time and resources into professional development.
> Again we are talking perceptions. If DPT does for PT as
> many hope it > will,
> who will get the higher nod: a DPT or an OCS? I believe
> an OCS > carries
> quite bit more weight in my eyes, but will it with the
> public? Not if > we're
> strutting around calling ourselves "doctors."
>
> >I don't understand this point. I don't see how the DPT
> takes away > from
> other
> >post professional degrees.
> Because it places an entry level DPT at the same level
> as post > professional
> DPTs or PhDs. The difference may be explained to
> someone who asks the > gory
> details, but most people take a title at face value.
>
> >I agree with residencies however it is a separate and
> distinct issue > from
> >DPT.
> I don't think so. It calls to question what our purpose
> is in > advancing the
> profession and how we wish to go about it. While a
> newly graduated > DPT may
> posess greater skills than a new MPT or BS PT, they
> would rarely have > the
> skills to do more than the rudimentary therapy capable
> of any > therapist with
> such a broad scope of education. PT students are
> expected to learn
> everything about everything PT related. This makes it
> impossible to > hone
> the skills necessary to be a master clinician in any
> specific area of
> practice. I would never presume to know much about
> treating ACL > repairs or
> plantar fasciitis, but I could run the table on the
> advanced treatment > of a
> SCI patient. This comes from specialized experience in
> this area, > something
> I did not posess at graduation. If we want better
> clinicians, we need > to
> better prepare them for the specific field they are
> going into. Very > few
> PT's I know hop from arena to arena; they find a niche
> and stick to > it. I
> wish I had had the opportunity to complete a neuro
> residency before
> practicing as a full fledged PT. It would have greatly
> facilitated my > entry
> level abilities. We need more capable specialists in
> this profession, > not
> generally educated "doctors."
>
> It is a pleasure debating this issue with you Doug!
> Again warm regards!
> Geoff
>
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C12295.7D4C2BE0
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0
> Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; > charset=iso-8859-1">
> <META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
> <STYLE></STYLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Geoff, </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>No one is saying that a
> professional > DPT new
> graduate will have better skills than someone with a
> bachelor's who has > 20 years
> of experience. What the APTA is trying to do, as I
> understand it, > is to
> simply draw a new starting line. People in
> the current field > can
> either choose to keep up with the degree advancements or
> not. Why > try to
> limit the growth of the profession? Why should
> we voluntarily > choose
> to only award ourselves degrees other than a
> doctorate? No > one but us
> are arguing that we stay at the master's and
> bachelor's level. If the
> profession had listened to > these
> arguments, then we would still be at the
> bachelor's level, or
> even certificates. Why don't we deserve
> doctorates when we > come out
> of school? </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What do you think is the
> percentage of > PT's in the
> USA that actually do specialize and obtain a board
> certification? > I bet no
> more than 1-3%. I don't think that it's reasonable
> to expect > that
> enough of us will specialize in order to advance the skill
> level and > perception
> of our profession. I myself believe in
> specialization and will go > after
> OCS but most of us simply aren't going to go that
> far. BTW OCS > gets
> roundly criticized often for not having a residency
> requirement, and the > APTA
> recently lowered the minimum hour requirement needed to
> sit for the > exam.
> I can't speak towards NCS, but OCS isn't a
> perfect product. However, that does not
> make it a > meritless
> pursuit.</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Physician's come out of
> school with a
> Doctorate of Medicine. Their professional
> title is
> Physician. Their professional title is not
> Doctor. That is > their
> degree level. Their body of knowledge has
> boundaries. > They are
> at the top because we and society as a whole, give them
> that > status. They
> are not omnipotent. Why are we fearful of
> having doctorates > and
> challenging the status quo? Is our "rightful place"
> always going to > be
> characterized by following their orders?
> </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If we stay at the
> bachelor's and > master's level,
> the playing field will never be level. That much we
> already do > know.
> With a Doctorate that could change. I believe
> that treating > by
> referral from a professional who has a higher
> degree/status level > can
> create an ethical dilemma. We will not be up front
> with our > professional
> opinions if our opinion is in conflict with
> our referral
> source. We are afraid that our opinion
> will not be > respected, be
> deemed a loose cannon and subsequently loose
> referrals......i.e. > mortgage the
> future of the clinic for an opinion about a
> patient. If > we level
> the playing field and practice autonomously, then we
> have a greater > chance
> of our opinions about our body of knowledge being
> respected.</FONT><FONT >
> face=Arial size=2> </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV>--------------------------------------------<BR>Jason
> Steffe, PT, > MS,
> MTC<BR>Physiotherapy Associates<BR>1901 Phoenix Blvd,
> Suite > 205<BR>College Park,
> GA. 30349<BR>Ph: 770-907-1023<BR>Fax:770-907-5608</DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE
> style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px;
> MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; > BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message
> ----- </DIV>
> <DIV
> style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial;
> font-color: > black"><B>From:</B>
> <A [log in to unmask] > href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Geoff</A> </DIV>
> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A > [log in to unmask]
>
> href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
> K</A> </DIV>
> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday,
> August 11, 2001 > 1:15
> AM</DIV>
> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
> DPT</DIV>
> <DIV><BR></DIV>Doug,<BR>In response to your
> response:<BR><BR>>Have > you ever
> added up the credits for the BS PT programs and
> compared<BR>those<BR>>credits with other BS degrees?
> I know the > credits for
> my BS degree should<BR>>have gotten me very close to
> a MS degree. > That is
> the "official" credits.<BR>>Many of my courses did
> not offer the > full
> number of credits the course<BR>>deserved.<BR>This is
> very true, > many entry
> level Master's programs are simply BS programs<BR>with a
> little extra > research
> added.<BR><BR>>Yes. The title society uses for an
> autonomous health > care
> practitioner is<BR>>Doctor. While many of us
> currently practice
> autonomously that level of<BR>>practice is not
> recognized readily > by
> society. The DPT should go a long way<BR>>to change
> that > perception.<BR>I
> disagree. The title society uses Doctor for is a
> physician (or
> academian<BR>in the case of PhD). I do not agree
> with chiros and >
> podiatrists using the<BR>designation "Doctor" any more
> than > PT's. Go ask
> anyone on the street what<BR>their perception of the
> word "doctor" > is.
> They certainly won't tell you<BR>"autonomous health care
> > practitioner."
> The higher designation will only be<BR>perceived within
> our > profession, not
> the public. They will see us still > as<BR>PT's.<BR><BR>>Comparing
> entry level education over a span of many years is
> dicey.
> The<BR>same<BR>>can be said for MDs, DPM, PharmD,
> AudD > etc.<BR>True, but we
> are talking perceptions here. The perception of
> any > other<BR>profession
> of us is the same, regardless of degree attained.
> Take > the<BR>current
> state of things... does anyone place the designation MPT
> above BS
> PT<BR>anywhere but within our own ranks? Not in my
> office. > We have
> one fellow<BR>who has been working for over 30 years who
> could make > any NCS or
> PhD look<BR>like a school kid with the extent of his
> knowledge (myself >
> included). His<BR>highest degree? BS
> PT.<BR><BR>>Please >
> explain. My understanding is MDs are awarded a
> clinical
> doctoral<BR>>degree.<BR>They are awarded the title of
> "doctor" as a >
> physician, but their education<BR>level is still
> accepted as being at > a
> Master's level (except for the few PhD<BR>MD programs
> out > there). Your
> statement brings up an interesting
> point<BR>however... Because > we are
> now awarding entry level DPT's, how is any<BR>consumer
> supposed to > determine
> accurately the expertise of their therapist?<BR>Isn't it
> confusing and >
> misleading to use the same terminology to describe
> an<BR>entry level > therapist
> as one who has gained his DPT through the
> usual<BR>progression (BS > then MPT
> then DPT)?<BR><BR>> This statement seems to be a
> contradiction. The > Doctor
> title is the<BR>highest<BR>>title in society for a
> profession. The > MD is
> the biggest and boldest<BR>>designation.<BR>As it
> should be. > We do
> not posess the skills and education of
> physicians,<BR>nor should we be >
> claiming to be their equals in the medical world.
> I > think<BR>this is the
> mistake many chiros have made in the
> past.<BR><BR>>Legally and
> professionally once you enter a profession you have
> earned > the<BR>>rights
> and privileges associated with that profession. No
> profession, to
> my<BR>>knowledge, has ever advanced its education and
> status
> without<BR>>"grandfathering" the people in the
> profession the > continued
> right to<BR>>practice.<BR>Correct, but we are not
> "grandfathering" > others
> in the profession to the DPT<BR>designation. Thus,
> there will be > a
> serious rift between DPT's and lesser<BR>degree
> therapists working in > the
> field for an awful long time. If what is<BR>being
> said is true
> (doubtful) and DPT does raise the perception of
> the<BR>public to us as >
> advanced practitioners, then we risk alienating those
> with<BR>the most >
> experience and clinical expertise.<BR><BR>>The level
> and type of > education
> that quality DPT programs are doing now
> far<BR>>exceeds my BSPT > education.
> It has been my professional responsibility
> to<BR>>continue to stay > current
> with appropriate practice in 2001 and beyond.<BR>This
> may be true, but > look at
> where you are at now compared to when you<BR>started
> years ago. > While it
> is appropriate to continue to make the<BR>preliminary
> education better > and
> better, most talented PT's will still be a<BR>step ahead
> of the > academic
> programs, as their curriculums tend to lag a
> bit<BR>behind current > research
> and developing practice. I will concede,
> however,<BR>that many
> practicing therapists do not stay current and fall
> behind > the<BR>times... in
> this case perhaps the higher standards of a DPT program
> > may<BR>outdistance
> these therapists, but won't replace their clinical > experience.<BR><BR>>See
> above. Degree granting institutions have a
> responsibility to
> award<BR>>degrees consistant with the credits
> earned.<BR>I don't > mean to
> mislead you, I'm all for DPT and MPT programs as
> a<BR>continuing > advancement
> of base education. It is the entry level
> programs<BR>that I
> question.<BR><BR>>This is not the case. The scope of
> practice is > the same,
> DPT or not.<BR>It does place DPT's in a precarious
> situation, > however.
> They do not posess<BR>the talents or skills of an
> experienced > practitioner,
> but they carry a title<BR>that places them above and
> beyond all other
> therapists.<BR><BR>>I don't see how a DPT after a BS
> would be more > costly
> than a MS after a BS.<BR>>I have not done an
> analysis. If you have > I'd be
> interested in what you<BR>>found.<BR>Advancements in
> degrees are > always an
> excuse to raise tuition. Just look at<BR>the
> average cost of > tuition
> going from BHS to MPT in the US. In some
> cases<BR>it is 3 or 4 > times as
> much.<BR><BR>>I disagree. As noted above we all have
> a > responsibility to
> stay current. If<BR>>we choose to do this by pursuing
> a tDPT fine. > There
> are a myriad of other<BR>>ways of staying current. No
> matter what > way you
> choose you will have to put<BR>>the time and
> resources into > professional
> development.<BR>Again we are talking perceptions.
> If DPT does > for PT as
> many hope it will,<BR>who will get the higher nod: a DPT
> or an > OCS? I
> believe an OCS carries<BR>quite bit more weight in my
> eyes, but will > it with
> the public? Not if we're<BR>strutting around
> calling ourselves
> "doctors."<BR><BR>>I don't understand this point. I
> don't see how > the DPT
> takes away from<BR>other<BR>>post professional
> degrees.<BR>Because > it
> places an entry level DPT at the same level as post > professional<BR>DPTs or
> PhDs. The difference may be explained to someone
> who asks the
> gory<BR>details, but most people take a title at face > value.<BR><BR>>I
> agree with residencies however it is a separate and
> distinct issue
> from<BR>>DPT.<BR>I don't think so. It calls to
> question what > our
> purpose is in advancing the<BR>profession and how we
> wish to go about
> it. While a newly graduated DPT may<BR>posess
> greater skills > than a new
> MPT or BS PT, they would rarely have the<BR>skills to do
> more than the >
> rudimentary therapy capable of any therapist
> with<BR>such a broad > scope of
> education. PT students are expected to
> learn<BR>everything about >
> everything PT related. This makes it impossible to
> hone<BR>the > skills
> necessary to be a master clinician in any specific area
> > of<BR>practice.
> I would never presume to know much about treating ACL
> repairs > or<BR>plantar
> fasciitis, but I could run the table on the advanced
> treatment of > a<BR>SCI
> patient. This comes from specialized experience in
> this area,
> something<BR>I did not posess at graduation. If we
> want better
> clinicians, we need to<BR>better prepare them for the
> specific field > they are
> going into. Very few<BR>PT's I know hop from arena
> to arena; > they find a
> niche and stick to it. I<BR>wish I had had the
> opportunity to > complete a
> neuro residency before<BR>practicing as a full fledged
> PT. It > would have
> greatly facilitated my entry<BR>level abilities.
> We need more > capable
> specialists in this profession, not<BR>generally
> educated > "doctors."<BR><BR>It
> is a pleasure debating this issue with you
> Doug!<BR>Again warm
> regards!<BR>Geoff<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C12295.7D4C2BE0--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of PHYSIO Digest - 10 Aug 2001 to 11 Aug 2001
> (#2001-98)
> **********************************************************
> **
>
|
