Helen,
I'm glad you added your twobobs worth you hit the nail on the head.
"where it's useful" you said.
John Clare is he a relation? He's described as an extraordinary story -
reported as writing his first verses in secret during his teens (no mentor
gets a mention for enabling him to develop the 'Craft')) the local lad done
good without a formal education!
But, lets not forget he did end up locked away in a lunatic asylum.
As did William Blake and others.
I'm beginning to think it's essential every poet has a mentor to steer them
on them the road to poetry.
But I doubt some bod counting syllables will be useful!
Only joking.
Lynn


Subject: Re: National Poetry Day


> I'm going to put my tuppeneth in to this very interesting discussion.
>
> I do quite a lot of work with poetry and young people and would agree what
> (I think) Lynn is suggesting that the primary objective is to allow
children
> to communicate about and explore their own world - to find their voice and
> creative core.
>
> For me there's a second process that then comes into play where it's
useful
> to encourage children to begin a process of reflection on their own work -
> to
> ask questions like: which bit of your work do you think communicates best
> what you feel? what are you most pleased with? what sounds/looks good? is
> there anything you'd like to learn to do better?
>
> I think this is a long way from imposing my own values or any abstract
idea
> of what is "good", or restricing access to the medium, but at the same
time
> helps them develop. As educators we value what our children do, and also
> respect their potential to grow and learn.
>
> Helen
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lynn Owen <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 8:17 PM
> Subject: Re: National Poetry Day
>
>
> > Dear John,
> > To learn we must observe.
> > We don't need our ears or eyes to observe, we feel.
> > I'll come clean, my son is also a non-verbal, described as 'challenging
> > autistic' harsh words those psychiatrists and educational psychologists
> use.
> > I didn't lay a trap, all I did was remove the boundary of your thoughts.
> > You spoke for those who can hear and see what you hear and see .
> > I spoke for those who feel, those who write something that has never
been
> > taught.
> > Something organic, natural, spontaneous, need I go on about the
non-verbal
> > who write brilliant poetry.
> >
> > John you said the following and I reacted.
> >
> > There is a lot to be said for unpolished and aboriginal work and in some
> > case those pieces
> > can be extraordinary.  But how much more can that same poet bring to
their
> > work after
> > years of study and refinement.  It would be quite reasonable to see the
> > unpolished piece as
> > holding a great potential, but unless the poet develops the craft and
the
> > language to enable
> > them to put their ideas on the page then they may come to nothing, or
> spend
> > their lives
> > writing doggerel.
> >
> > I don't see doggerel or hear doggerel I feel their voice.
> >
> > My point is, there is a big world out there and poetry is a medium for
> > many - not just those who study and develop the 'craft'.
> >
> > My thoughts are moving to the kid living in the tower block, his first
> > language is ???? but he's writing in English - do we stop him doing what
> > he's doing?
> > Lynn
> >
> >
> > Subject: Re: National Poetry Day
> >
> >
> > > I figured this was coming.
> > > >Hence I didn't mention the fact that the kids at the kids club are
> > > >non-verbal.
> > >
> > >
> > > Oh I see you laid a trap...! Oh no but hang on a minute where did I
ever
> > say
> > > that poetry
> > > needed a verbal element or a written on for that matter.  My concept
of
> > what
> > > poetry is
> > > borders with all art and intertextuality.  It is you who applied these
> > ideas
> > > to restrict it not
> > > me.
> > >
> > > So are you suggesting that we should not teach our children to be
> > > facilitators of language,
> > > are you saying that they should be abandoned to their own devises?  At
> > what
> > > point do we
> > > stop enabling them to develop, would you like to put a point on that.
> > > Because a child or
> > > young person is less able for whatever reason are you suggesting that
we
> > > should never
> > > give them the tools to expand their minds or their horizons.
> > >
> > > I find this view so reactionary it makes me ill.  Everyone has the
right
> > to
> > > demand of us
> > > that we do our best for them, enabling them to become the best they
can
> > be.
> > > Your judgement of what might be their plotential may have no bareing
ion
> > > what they want for themselves.
> > >
> > > You might tell a child that its dubings with paint are wonderful and
> hang
> > > them in your kitchen but they will never make it to an art gallery.
So
> do
> > > you just keep the child in blissful ignorance getting a pat on the
head
> > from
> > > those who think its cute, or do you give them the tools to grow and
> > develop
> > > intoi people who can express themselves in a way which will touch many
> > > people.  I would have thought this was even more important in the case
> of
> > > people from whome we can lean so much.  if we do not give them the
> tools,
> > > how can they teach us?.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
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