Sorry to be pedantic... but the Wanderer is a poem in Old English, which -
however else one disputes the date must have a composition terminus ante
quem of the 11th century.
The sagas are prose works, in Icelandic, written in the 13th century.
I agree with you to some extent about 'fate'... but would not view 'quest'
as a dominant saga motif.
The family sagas deal largely with family feuds and vengeance. The romantic
idea of a hero isolated - and usually self-isolated - from society does not
strike me as fundamental to any old Germanic literatures. The group -
family, kindred, warband - is what is important. The great tragedies of
those literatures is caused by the clash of loyalties -.e.g. brothers or
father and son having to fight on opposite sides in the same battle.
Individual 'honour' matters - but only in relation to the 'group' ... one
must not lose face, nor fail to filfil one's obligations to the group.
The 'Wanderer' is a figure of pathos because he has lost all such ties
throuigh some disaster...
But it is good to be able to discuss these things...
By the way... I recalled another modern kenning (again, nautical, yesterday)
'Mother Carey's chickens' for stormy petrels;;
i.e. as Chickens are to the farmer's wife
so are petrels to Mother Carey,
who (in case she is not known outside sea-faring circles) is a kind of
'sea-mother' or 'storm woman', sometimes said to be the wife (or sister) of
Davy Jones ... or in another strand of the tradition, is 'Christianized'
as St Peter's wife, sister,... or mother-in-law!
I do not know if it significant or not that most of the 'modern' kennings
that come to my mind have a nautical flavour... It could just be that it is
because I was largely brought up by my grandmother, who was brought up by
her grandfather, who was a retired sailor ('skipper of the main top' in
full-riggers). So our 'family language' still tends to have maritime
overtones.
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Rudd <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 11 September 2001 21:50
Subject: Re: New sub: the Domesday Hedge
> I meant in the sense of the quest, and the hero's following his fate
> The same thing that led Byron to Greece perhaps embodied in the Wanderer
> having to leave his home and take to the whale-road?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Vera Rich <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 6:07 AM
> Subject: Re: New sub: the Domesday Hedge
>
>
> > There is little of the 'romantic hero' in the sagas that I can see!
Which
> > ones do you mean?
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Steve Rudd <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: 10 September 2001 21:01
> > Subject: Re: New sub: the Domesday Hedge
> >
> >
> > > You could however make a case for the romantics capturing the spirit
of
> > the
> > > sagas, the adverturing of the romantic hero (Lyrical Ballads 1798,
just
> > 18th
> > > century in time, though not in spirit!)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Vera Rich <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 10:58 AM
> > > Subject: Re: New sub: the Domesday Hedge
> > >
> > >
> > > > A kenning works on the principle
> > > >
> > > > as A is to B
> > > >
> > > > so C is to D
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > and then you put A and D together, to form a 'kenning' describing
C
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To take a few familiar modern examples.
> > > >
> > > > As a ship (A) is to the sea(B)
> > > >
> > > > So is a camel (C) to the desert (D)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hence one calls a camel (C) a 'ship of the desert'.(AD)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > As blood (A) is to an (ordinary) body (B)
> > > >
> > > > So rum (C) was to Nelson (D)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hence rum (C) is called 'Nelson's blood'. (AD)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > As Venice (built on an archipelago) (A) is to the south of Europe
(B)
> > > >
> > > > so Stockholm (built on an archipelago)(C) is to the north of Europe
D)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hecne Stockholm (C) is called 'Venice of the North'
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > As a (maritime) pilot (A) is to a harbour (B) (i.e. he helps bring
you
> > > there
> > > > safely)
> > > >
> > > > So a clergyman (C) is to heaven (D)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hence a clergyman (C) (in nautical slang) is called a sky-pilot (AD)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Likewise, any expressions using the name of a writer or artist in
one
> > > > culture to describe a writer or artist in another is an implied
> kenning
> > > >
> > > > Thus if you call Mickiewicz the 'Polish Virgil', you imply the
> > parallelism
> > > >
> > > > As Virgil [A} wrote the patriotic epic of Rome [B]
> > > >
> > > > So Mickiewicz [C] wrote the patriotic epic of Poland [D]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 'Snail mail' is not a kenning, because one does not have the
> cross-over
> > it
> > > > is a simple parallelism:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 'As a snail [A] is to [something quick-B]],
> > > >
> > > > so is hard-copy post[C] to e-mail.{D}
> > > >
> > > > Linking A and C does not make a kenning!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Kennings appear to be indigenous to all early Germanic literatures.
> > And -
> > > > although datings are for the most part difficult, most Old English
> > poetry
> > > > would appear to be significantly older than Old Norse (Icelandic).
> > > >
> > > > The eighteenth century knew very little about Old English - or
indeed
> > any
> > > > early Germanic poetry - see, for example, Gibbon's disparaging
remarks
> > > about
> > > > the lost Gothic lays of Ermanaric. Transcription and publication of
> the
> > > > texts was mainly a 19th century phenomenon - and some poetic texts
> were
> > > not
> > > > properly edited and published until the 20th.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Bob Cooper <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > Sent: 10 September 2001 01:04
> > > > Subject: Re: New sub: the Domesday Hedge
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi (again) Steve,
> > > > > Yeh, I'm thinking all the more about this poem and how it relates
to
> > > > poetry.
> > > > > I can see (and smell/and hear/and touch) the hedge you've given me
> in
> > > the
> > > > > poem you've written very clearly. If you're wanting to get right
> back
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > Domesday ordering of England (and so bypassing the 18th Century's
> > > > > pastoralia) then the alliteration/assonance/consonance features of
> the
> > > > poems
> > > > > construction and presentation comes to the fore. And the words you
> use
> > > > sound
> > > > > so juicy!
> > > > >
> > > > > I enjoyed the kennings too (but my Tardis seems to have
> malfunctioned
> > a
> > > > > little because I put them into Northern English and Norse
literature
> > > (and
> > > > > then only associated them with Iceland at the time of the Domesday
> > > > Survey).
> > > > > Maybe I should have remembered the Vikings wandered all over and
> that,
> > > > later
> > > > > on, Beowulf's writer uses them too! Does anyone (else, apart from
> > > Steve -
> > > > > and translators) use them today?. Is "snail mail" a kenning?
> > > > >
> > > > > And Joanna's made me wonder, too, what regard the 18th Century
poets
> > had
> > > > for
> > > > > Anglo Saxon poetry. I've sort of assumed they had a classical
> > > appreciation
> > > > > of poetry (that linked in with their architecture and art) and
their
> > > > > references to Greek and Roman myths were ways of linking with
their
> > > notion
> > > > > of what had been written in the past. But I don't really know...
The
> > > > poetry
> > > > > canon has always been tightly controlled (and spasmodically
objected
> > to
> > > > and
> > > > > revised). If I only read what those who set the syllabus wanted me
> to
> > > read
> > > > I
> > > > > would never know what's possible and glimpseable and graspable
with
> > > poems.
> > > > > So, like with the hedge, it's back to the roots!
> > > > > Bob
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: Steve Rudd <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > >Reply-To: The Pennine Poetry Works <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > >To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > >Subject: New sub: the Domesday Hedge
> > > > > >Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 00:04:15 +0100
> > > > > >
> > > > > >This is about a hedge near our office. I doubt it really is a
> > Domesday
> > > > > >Hedge (though there ARE some, in the English Landscape), it's
> > probably
> > > > > >about 18th century, but it just seemed a good metaphor for the
way
> a
> > > lot
> > > > of
> > > > > >things have been changed this year. Apologies if you knew this
> > already
> > > > but
> > > > > >the "Bishop's Terrier" mentioned, is an ecclesiastical land
survey
> > > > (Terrare
> > > > > >= land) not a holier-than-thou Jack Russell. Pity.
> > > > > >The Domesday Hedge
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Nine hundred and fifteen is the age of the hedge
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Numbered by nine hundred winters' blast,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >By those same summers, sap-fed:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >It has been storm-tossed, wind-ruffled, rain-drenched,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >With its white webs autumn-dancing with dew:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >And mouse and shrew scampering beneath, squeak and patter,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Feet rustling the years past, their poor small bones
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Becoming lost white patterns on leaf-mould
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Dappling the meadow paddock each autumn
> > > > > >
> > > > > >As the wind moans and the Keck nods its Queen Anne Lace
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Over strip, ridge and furrow, over the dun fallows watched by
owls,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Where Ealdormen rode the lanes to the whale-road,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Counting your yards and furlongs, marking plough turns and
> headlands.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >While branches swung, heavy with dawn-birds, your lines were
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Enumerated by Thanes, grain-boundaries scratched on vellum,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Demesned and enclosed, sake, soc, and quitrent,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Rogation-beaten, part of the Bishop's Terrier,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Boxing fields tilled by Shires with chestnut-buffed tackle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Bordered by lost generations of cow-parsley,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Michelmas, Candlemas, Plough-Mondayed, and moon-wintered.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >* * *
> > > > > >
> > > > > >How many more Springs, I wonder, will we see
> > > > > >
> > > > > >You quarter the field of vert proper, its fleurs-de-lys
green-laid
> > > > > >
> > > > > >With your traceried escutcheon; now that a new plague
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Blackens your land, and shepherds pipe a bitter eclogue?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >And has the Norman's misnomer come home to roost at last, come
> true,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >As the smoke rises over silent byres, over dung still body-warm,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >And you become less of a hedge, an edge, and more anachronism?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _________________________________________________________________
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> > > > >
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> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
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