Hi Ali

As I am completely innocent of a university education I would have no idea
about what verse versus prose debates go on in those establishments other
than what escapes outside their walls into the vagaries of my ambit and
orbit but I would hope for some pittance of the significant in what I ask.

You have:

> The language of a 'society' is foremost spoken than it is written in any
form; that
> is, conversations, TV, radio, etc. Journalism is rather powerful these
days, but it
> too originates in what so and so politician 'said'. You catch my drift. If
we are
> talking about the language of the society (not that of individuals, and
certainly
> not that of a passive academic trend) then I can assure you that poetry,
due to its
> connections to breath and syllable, is far more capable than prose. As for
Fredie
> Neptune, I'm not sure if it simulates a novel what so ever. If anything,
it's
> modelled on Homer's 'Oddysey'.
>

You might be suprized to know I agree with almost all of the above. But,
like a character in a certain play from across the Channel, it is prose that
we are speaking all our lives. From that prose, nascent, surface elements
akin to the close concentrations of poetry, but I don't think that what
surfaces is amenable to sustained narrative in verse-measures, what you
possibly have is something more akin to the Japanese haibun, in its possible
treatments. I do have my own 'epic', you know, it basic 'measure' is the
page, it uses the styles of newspaper reports, adverts, radio shows,
letters, dramatic sketches, monologues, reviews, etc etc, as well as more
traditional narratives of prose, and occasional outbreaks of verse. I wrote
it about 4 years ago, and apart from a few tweaks it is finished, but I've
never sent the whole anywhere, my brain shuts down if I attempt to
contemplate the idea, as if looking at an utter blank, but have dispensed
'units' here and there, yet, altho' the terrain I describe for it might
sound like a novel, I am quite sure that is a poem. I like your point about
Fred Neptune following the Oddysey, and would quite likely agree, but I'd
also point out that the Oddysey is perhaps better seen as a 'romance' rather
than an epic, and 'romance' is exactly where the novel came through the
door, after an exchange of letters.

By measure I mean quite literally 'what is meted out'. Which gives justice
to poetry, the grain it doles from the pharoaonic stores. I'd certainly
disagree though that prose by definition has no rhythm, everything moves
towards rhythm, it's just that we have so much arhythmic drab breakdowns of
movement in our bust wide world's flung yawp and corruscating desensitized
commentaries footnoting in the academe.

I don't see either any necessary antipathy between mythic poetry and a
materialist society. After all, it flourished among the violently
materialistic Greeks or the gold and good seating admiring Anglo-Saxons.
What makes myth anyhow? Retrospective explanations of how things are,
desires for legitimizing pedigree and the symbolizing pressure winnowed
figures of collective memory? A Scyld Sceafing in the background, or a Robin
Hood. Aforefront a story, let's call it Genesis?

As for Ezra, well I think in many respects he was Quite Nuts. But the rift,
the too much like a fissure caesura, occurs in his language, in the
disjunction of his demotic with his 'poetic'.

Anyhow

best

david b


----- Original Message -----
From: ALI ALIZADEH <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 3:35 AM
Subject: Re: The epic: pros and cons


> Hi David
>
> Since I did my under-grad and honours at a very prose-dominated envorinmet
(Griffith
> Uni Gold Coast headed by the novelist Nigel Krauth in the aftermath of the
huge
> success of the 'grunge' novel 'Praise')I find your questions very
significant and
> yet typical of the old verse vs prose argument. You've said:
>
> >As epic must encompass the language of its originating society somewhat
> >full-on. I cannot see how any contemporary epic can extricate itself from
the
> >dominance of prose. Les Murray's Fred Neptune works by simulating the
novel.
>
> The language of a 'society' is foremost spoken than it is written in any
form; that
> is, conversations, TV, radio, etc. Journalism is rather powerful these
days, but it
> too originates in what so and so politician 'said'. You catch my drift. If
we are
> talking about the language of the society (not that of individuals, and
certainly
> not that of a passive academic trend) then I can assure you that poetry,
due to its
> connections to breath and syllable, is far more capable than prose. As for
Fredie
> Neptune, I'm not sure if it simulates a novel what so ever. If anything,
it's
> modelled on Homer's 'Oddysey'.
>
> >David Jones dug into the footnotes of archaeologos its strata, but still
the
> >most conspicuous attempt at poetic epic of the century leaving harbour
has
> >to be, in English, the most conspicuously flawed. I mean, of course, the
> >split and fragmented Cantos.
>
> I'm not into talking about what's 'most' this or what's 'least' that. And
with Pound
> I find more than his writing his personal politics to be flawed. His 'ego'
which
> equated itself with Dante and Kung and looked down on anyone else. His
sheer
> arrogance in attempting to overcome Homer; etc. As Olson said: "Pound
solved his
> problems with his ego" and that's a big flaw. Even Freud would agree with
that.
>
> >The stillbirths of the feted like Omeros point how unreachable the epos
is
> >without prose. And prose, without wishing to labour the so often stated,
is
> >where the epic mode now finds its measure, its tread.
>
> Like I said, it's an old university argument which often resulted in me
wanting to
> take out the prose-writers. But I'm more mature now (I hope) and have
stopped
> drinking. Writing mythical poetry in a materialist era is, without a
doubt, very
> difficult and demands a near religious devotion. Making believe that is.
What do you
> mean by 'measure'? Is that as in William Carlos William's substitute
> for 'rhythm'? 'cos most prose, by definition, has no rhythm and when it
does it's
> plainly exploiting the poetics of language. Prose has grammer, paragraphs
> and 'facts' and 'figures'. As for something 'finding' something else
'now', a
> parallel is that most rural communites 'find' their leader in Pauline
Hanson 'now'.
> But that doesn't mean it's either appropriate or stable. And frankly,
don't let one
> bad apple (Omeros) spoil the whole bunch. Please.
>
> Ali