No problem
All the best
L
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Weiss" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 26 September 2001 18:11
Subject: Re: Letter to a leftist friend
| Sorry. It was 4 am. And this awful business hasn't put me at my best.
|
| Mark
|
| At 12:32 PM 9/26/2001 +0100, you wrote:
| >Dear Mark
| >
| >I regret that you see yourself as a hunted rodent when all I have done is
| >invite you to elaborate upon your own words' meaning.
| >
| >You anticipate my conclusions and you get it wrong; the conclusions you
| >attribute to me are NOT my conclusions.
| >
| >I find no comfort in anything much at the moment, in what has happened,
in
| >what is happening and what may well happen. Just now some slightly jolly
| >voices are saying maybe there won't be war when people are already dying
| >because of frightening utterances. But no one mentions that; and the
opinion
| >seems to be that sending aid will somehow make it all right. Bring back
| >indulgences!
| >
| >As to a moral claim to life... I don't know what you are talking about.
| >Those are your words.
| >
| >I am questioning the relevance of _innocence_ and _relative innocence_. I
am
| >also questioning the *use of those terms. I am trying to discuss such
issues
| >with anyone who will discuss them in an endeavour to learn more about my
| >thoughts, others' thoughts and what needs to be done. There's a lot of
| >muddled thinking around and I am not free of it
| >
| >It seems to me self-evident that some are more or less complicit in all
| >goods and bads - if you'll accept such a sloppy term. If they are not, I
do
| >not know what we are to do with any concept of taking people to justice.
If
| >it's true that we are all complicit to an equal extent, ok. I wouldn't
want
| >to stand in the way of updating our ethics; but be sure where that leads
us.
| >We're all guilty, person - you, me, Bin Laden, Bush, the aid worker. I
was
| >only doing my duty.
| >
| >If, for whatever reason, you will not respond to me, there's nothing I
can
| >do and nothing that I shall do. However, I protest at your offensive
| >response on the basis of defensive misreadings of my intentions
| >
| >All the very best
| >
| >
| >Lawrence
| >
| >----- Original Message -----
| >From: "Mark Weiss" <[log in to unmask]>
| >To: <[log in to unmask]>
| >Sent: 26 September 2001 11:52
| >Subject: Re: Letter to a leftist friend
| >
| >
| >| This little cat and mouse gets sillier and crueler by the moment,
| >Lawrence.
| >| I wasn't so much positing relative innocence as questioning the
relevance
| >| of the term. But if you wish to comfort yourself that some are less
| >| complicit in the society in which they live and that that somehow gives
| >| them a greater moral claim to life be my guest.
| >|
| >| Mark
| >|
| >|
| >| At 10:39 AM 9/26/2001 +0100, you wrote:
| >| >Ah, so - for Mark - we are speaking of relative innocence. I don't
know
| >if
| >| >that applies to Frederick, but let's go on from what Mark has told
us -
| >if
| >| >we're all agreeable.
| >| >
| >| >Are they, the workers in the Pentagon, as relatively innocent as those
in
| >| >WTC who were not in the military, a janitor perhaps? Let's compare,
say,
| >a
| >| >procurement officer in the Pentagon and a janitor in WTC - are they of
| >the
| >| >same relative innocence? And, if so, why?
| >| >
| >| >Are there not degrees of complicity?
| >| >
| >| >L
| >| >
| >| >----- Original Message -----
| >| >From: "Mark Weiss" <[log in to unmask]>
| >| >To: <[log in to unmask]>
| >| >Sent: 26 September 2001 04:03
| >| >Subject: Re: Letter to a leftist friend
| >| >
| >| >
| >| >| I'm with you, Fred. In this country soldiers and sailors I've known
| >refer
| >| >| to the military as "the iron tit," the source of lifetime security.
It
| >| >| provides our only socialized medicine system, subsidized housing,
| >moving
| >| >| expenses, higher education, even subsidized department stores. And a
| >| >| healthy pension after 20 years, with most of the other benefits
| >continuing
| >| >| till death. Very few sign up to be warriors--it's usually the best
gig
| >| >they
| >| >| can find. And that goes double for the civilian employees. So yes,
I'd
| >say
| >| >| that they're usually among the innocent, as innocent as any of us in
| >this
| >| >| society where it's impossible not to be complicit, whatever our
| >politics.
| >| >| The same, I imagine, could be said for the average Afghani.
| >| >|
| >| >| Mark
| >| >|
| >| >| At 09:59 PM 9/25/2001 -0400, you wrote:
| >| >| >Lawrence Upton wrote:
| >| >| >>
| >| >| >> ----- Original Message -----
| >| >| >> From: "Frederick Pollack" <[log in to unmask]>
| >| >| >> To: <[log in to unmask]>
| >| >| >> Sent: 25 September 2001 16:43
| >| >| >> Subject: Re: Letter to a leftist friend
| >| >| >>
| >| >| >> | Someone will pay, in blood and pain, for what has been done to
| >| >innocent
| >| >| >> | American civilians.
| >| >| >>
| >| >| >> Do you include in that category "innocent American citizens"
those
| >who
| >| >| >> worked in the Pentagon. If so, why? If not, why not?
| >| >| >>
| >| >| >> Serious question. Please answer.
| >| >| >>
| >| >| >> all the best
| >| >| >>
| >| >| >> L
| >| >| >
| >| >| >Yes. If one assumes that everyone who works in the Pentagon,
| >including
| >| >| >janitors, clerks, quartermasters etc., is guilty of neocolonialism
and
| >| >| >imperialism, one is following the same standard whereby already
| >starving
| >| >| >(and perhaps apolitical) Afghans may soon be "acceptable collateral
| >| >| >damage." One accedes also to the idea, with which GWB agrees, that
| >this
| >| >| >attack was an act of war.
| >| >| >
| >| >|
| >| >
| >|
| >
|
|