One of the difficulties with a lot of terms is that they describe
promiscuously both practice and aspiration, often not present
simultaneously in a given work. Another is that they have histories not
only in different places but in different media and times. So "postmodern"
in architecture (but not always in writing) describes something very like
what you call neobaroque, whereas "neobaroque" has been used for at least a
century to describe buildings characterized by the use of formal elements
of baroque architectural style with no inclusion of kitsch elements or
sense that what one is doing may be kitsch. The same is true of the use of
the term by musicologists or students of painting and sculpture.

But of course we can all call what we do whatever we wish.

As to Lezama, that's a lot to read into two very brief fragments of larger
works ("Thoughts..." is seven pages long, "The Seven Allegories" 3 pages),
and doesn't have much to do with his practice. He doesn't have much
interest in either life as museum, decadence, spiritual rebirth or
allegory, as far as I can tell--his practice seems to have been more
concerned with the primacy of the individual image, the structure (not the
analysis) of dreams, and a unity that, when it exists at all, grows out of
the coexistence of such within the limits of poem or book. The experience
of reading him reminds me of three days I spent in Naples in 1962. I'm very
nearsighted, and I had broken my glasses. Much of Naples was still a city
of ruins from the war--fragments of buildings, villages of rubble with open
sewers--it's baroque enough now, but compared to then it's a model of
classical symmetry. Because the "ground" was radically out of focus all I
could make out was "figure" after figure, with no topography or
context--isolated intimate sensory events. A psychedelic experience avant
la lettre (except that I was fairly precocious in that regard). A great
voyage that I don't care to repeat, except on the page. But a trajectory
does appear out of the apparent chaos. Thus Lezama.

Which is not to criticize your work--merely to state that I think it's
doing something different.

Incidentally (nota bene, Richard and Randolph), I too always read your
posts--I enjoy them, even when I disagree with this or that, and it would
be hard to comment if I didn't read them. But I don't think that this
confers on me any special virtue.

Mark

At 04:52 PM 9/9/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Mark. it is indeed a good choice this poem by Lezama
>Lima, "Thoughts in Havana"
>since it does contain plenty of the elements I was
>underlying in my previous definition of the
>neo-baroque: an emphasis on life turned into a
>museum, the theme of the spiritual decadence and the
>issue of the spiritual rebirth, the idea of the mask
>(as in baroque use of personas), the stress put on the
>"souls" claims, and so on (all to be found also in
>what I write to a certain extent, don't you think?
>expecially in my series "Mystics").
>I am sure it is easier for those who belong to a
>Catholic tradition to recognize or feel attraction for
>the baroque, in its use of the fantastic, the
>grotesque, as in the Italian Cinquecento and in the
>European Xvii th century arts. But most of all,
>neo-baroque is the use of allegories, as stressed by
>Walter Benjamin in his The Baroque Drama (Il dramma
>Barocco). Benjamin was in fact an appreciators and a
>fore-runners of the present tendencies. So Franco
>Fortini (a great translator of Milton's Paradise Lost,
>and Goethe's Faust, two baroque works "per
>eccellenza").
>The neo baroque is exactly that attraction for the
>expressionist use of the pomp, the will to shock and
>provoke wonder, the taste for the subtleties and the
>paradox strangely coexisting with the need for order
>and harmony(which honestly are all to be found in what
>I write, for a precise plan I have in mind).
>
>Also you can consider neo-baroque some kind of
>male-transsexual performances (which I can myself
>avoid being as I am already a woman) , along with the
>will to over-stress the subjectivity to transcend it,
>to go beyond its codes, to dramatize the human
>condition and the presence in the human being of
>ridiculous and yet exquisite elements of the
>divine....in my opinion arts tends now towards this
>style, inevitably, for their energetic tension
>towards the spectacular, the taste for high contrasts
>and for the kitsch, as I previously said...(>
>neo-baroque is the rediscovery, exaltation and
>re-evaluation of the kitsch, it is the attribution to
>its codes of a scheme of values and the
> re-activation of them in the contemporaneity, it is
>believing in the power of the false, the artefact as
>being more meaningful of the true. This roughly:
>Helton John crying at the funeral of Versace is
>neo-baroque,
>this superficially already gives an example), to
> have a museum of the false (as in my town, Salerno)
>is
>baroquesque...Tate Modern in London is
> neo-baroque in its delayed effects of the
>media...German neo-idealism is a form itself of the
>neo-baroque...performative
>arts when too self-conscious are
>neo-baroque...what neo-baroque is not is the strenuous
>claim for authenticity, for the self, for
>psychoanalysis...and so on...neo-baroque is when in a
>society poetry, arts,
>music become more powerful than the effects produced
>by the industry and by the values connected to working
>class struggle...the neo-baroque is in itself a
>parody
>of the baroque so it has as well critical potentials
>since it reveals its on tools and aims having
>antecedents,,, and so on,... but I am making
>myself ready to go to a party, and I will have to be
>there in half an hour: I would gladly retake the
>conversation when I come back home later. Neo-baroque
>is also politically incorrect since it stresses
>contrasts and
>exploits them (neo-baroque is when art makes the
>world, as it is almost the case now, not
> viceversa).
>The mannerism of our daily communications with
>their fake language and false aims is neo-baroque, so
>we are on the right path. Erminia (Passannanti) : )
>-----------
>
>
>
>--- Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>Here are two very brief examples of Lezama Lima.
>> ...
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> Thoughts in Havana
>>
>> Because I inhabit a sigh like a sail,
>> a land where ice is a memory,
>> the fire can't hoist a bird
>> and burn it in a conversation of complacent style.
>> Although this style doesn't dictate a sob
>> and a tenuous leap allows me a grumpy life,
>> I don't have to acknowledge the useless progress
>> of a mask floating I could not know where,
>> where I could not know to transport the stonecutter
>> or the latch
>> to museums where assassins are wrapped
>> while visitors point at the squirrel
>> which with its tail is arranging the stockings.
>> If an anterior style shakes the tree,
>> it decides the sob of two strands of hair and
>> exclaims:
>> _my soul is not in an ashtray!_
>>
>>
>> The Seven Allegories
>>
>> The first allegory
>> is the pig with teeth of stars,
>> the teeth fly to their sky of low clouds,
>> the pig exults laughing at its splitting.
>> Into ham, into laconic questions.
>>
>>
>> At 03:45 PM 9/9/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>> >Apropos this assertion:
>> >
>> >At 12:12 PM -0700 9/9/01, Mark Weiss wrote:
>> >> Your use of the term, and your own
>> >>poetry, seem not at all related.
>> >
>> >
>> >Please provide a few illustrations of why her
>> poetry is not baroque?
>> >If "baroque" implies all sorts of florid excesses
>> and fantastic
>> >affects, well, Erminia's giantess would seem to
>> qualify. Doesn't the
>> >dance of the Latin world pride itself for its
>> posturing and its elan
>> >and its stamping around and its dash and frenzies?
>> When Erminia
>> >shares and instructs that
>> >
>> >At 11:35 AM -0700 9/9/01, erminia wrote:
>> >>neo-baroque is when in a society poetry, arts,
>> >>music become more poweful than the effects
>> produced
>> >>by the industry and by the values connected to
>> working
>> >>class struggle.
>> >
>> >
>> >She is coming through with some real smart
>> observations here. Poetry
>> >is not born by the recultivation of some past
>> literary movement, as
>> >you seem to imply she claims she is doing in order
>> to validate her
>> >work. No. Erminia sees the majic unrealities as
>> they manifest,
>> >i.e., Elton John at Versace's funeral. She left
>> out Princess Di's
>> >synchronistical contribution to the whole baroque
>> sequence of fated
>> >accretions but she is astute in her wakefulness
>> nonetheless.
>> >
>> >I for one read ALL of the Poet Erminia's
>> contributions.
>> >
>> >RD
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>Erminia: Terms are of limited use, but even within
>> those limitations this
>> >>is a bit confusing. The term neo-baroque was
>> invented, I think, by the
>> >>great Cuban poet José Lezama Lima in the late 30s
>> and is very much current
>> >>in Latin America. So much so that when José Kozer,
>> one of the best-known
>> >>(in the Spanish-speaking world) of contemporary
>> Cuban poets, identifies
>> >>himself as neo-baroque he expects folks to have a
>> vague idea where that
>> >>places him in the spectrum of possible practices.
>> When his name came up in
>> >>conversation in Tijuana, which is a different
>> planet from Cuba, there was a
>> >>general murmer of "ah, neobaroco." Your use of the
>> term, and your own
>> >>poetry, seem not at all related. Is this a new
>> coinage of an old term?
>> >>
>> >>Mark
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>At 11:35 AM 9/9/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>> >>>Dear Douglas,
>> >>>
>> >>>neo-baroque is the rediscovery, exaltation and
>> >>>re-evaluation of the kitsch, it is the
>> attribution to
>> >>>its codes of a scheme of values and the
>> re-activation
>> >>>of them in the contemporaneity, it is believing
>> in the
>> >>>poewer of the false, the artefact as being more
>> >>>meaningful of the true. This raghly: Helton John
>> >>>crying at the funeral of Versace is neo-baroque,
>> >>>(this superficially already gives an example), to
>> have
>> >>>a museum of the false (as in my town, Salerno) is
>> >>>baroquesque...Tate Modern in London is
>> neo-baroque in
>> >>>its delayed effects of the media...German
>> neo-idealism
>> >>>is a form itself of the
>> neo-baroque...performative
>> >>>arts when too self-conscious are
>> neo-baroque...what
>> >>>neo-baroque is not is the strenuous claim for
>> >>>autenticity, for the self, for
>> psychoanalysis...and so
>> >>>on...neo-baroque is when in a society poetry,
>> arts,
>> >>>music become more poweful than the effects
>> produced
>> >>>by the industry and by the values connected to
>> working
>> >>>class struggle...the neo-baroque is in itself a
>> parody
>> >>>of the baroque so it has as well critical
>> potentials
>> >>>since it reveals its on tools and aims having
>> >>>antecedents,,, and so on,... but I am making
>> myself
>> >>>ready to go to a party, and I will have to be
>> there in
>> >>>half an hour: I would gladly retake the
>> conversation
>> >>>when I come back home later. Neo-baroque is also
>> >>>politically incorrect since it stresses contrssts
>> and
>> >>>exploits them (neo-baroque is when art makes the
>> >>>world, as it is almost the case now, not
>> viceversa).
>> >>>The mannerism of our daily communications with
>> their
>> >>>fake language and false aims is neo-baroque, so
>> we are
>> >>>on the right path.
>> >>>
>> >>>Erminia (Passannanti) :
>> >>>
>> >>>--- Douglas Clark <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> >>>> Come on ERminia explain neo-baroque! At four
>> this
>>
>=== message truncated ===
>
>
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