Yeah, I hear what you're saying, Alison, and I found the feminist
overgeneralizing in Fred's first post today hard to take, but I can still
sympathize with him on the "towers of evil" post. They're each issues on
which any of us may or may not be in sympathy, but neither one constitutes
everything there is to be known or said of a person, whichever way those
views shake down. Fred's been a participant on this list for several years,
as I recall, and he's often made smart contributions to threads as well as
posted a number of interesting poems. His views and strong feelings on
recent events have certainly led to some posts that were harsher than usual,
but that's been the case with a number of listees during this period, and it
doesn't seem like the whole story on any of them. Fred himself doesn't seem
to be generalizing the particular line on those events that he finds
particularly obnoxious to the list as a whole, but only to a certain
faction. If he objects strongly to what they've been saying in posts, that
doesn't necessarily make him a bigot, does it, or his posts abusive
(personally, I mean), however harsh they may be? He and David had a
well-tempered exchange this evening, despite often being at loggerheads
recently, and however sharp or harsh I've found quite a few of David's posts
to be, with a much rougher tone and tenor than is usual for him, it never
occurred to me to challenge his presence on the list or suggest that he vote
with his feet if he didn't like the fact that there's a large American
presence on it, say. Same with Lawrence, who doesn't exactly mince his
words!
For myself, I'd hate to see any of them leave the list and would miss their
company if they did go, but I sure wish as much as you do that we could all
be more sensitive and civil toward one another. Well, if wishes were horses
(a saying I've never understood, now that I think of it)--but what a lame
conclusion they've carried me to! So, enough--
All the best, everyone,
Candice
on 12/17/01 11:33 PM, Alison Croggon at [log in to unmask] wrote:
> Thanks for the clarification, Candice: I remember the post now and,
> like everyone else, took no notice of it. Fred's "sense of outrage"
> however seems to spread way past a single quote in a single post,
> which he neglected to respond to, and embraces the entire list,
> feminist autocrats, commies, Uncle Tom Cobbly and all, in his abusive
> ire. Which seems not so much a desire to discuss anything as an
> opportunity to air his belligerent bigotries.
>
> And I find _that_ very objectionable and counter to what this list,
> at its best, is. And, as I say, puzzling: since he dislikes the list
> so much (as he keeps saying, and I keep asking) why is he here?
>
> A
>
>
>
>
>
>> Hi Alison and Fred,
>>
>> I just checked the archives and found that "towers of evil" was used in a
>> post a couple of days ago on the "Re: Is this real . . . " thread and in
>> response to a prior post. I remember seeing the post, but finding it hard to
>> parse, although the poster's point in reference to "towers of evil" seemed
>> clear enough ("it is taboo to express jubilation over the fall of the towers
>> of evil"). True enough in terms of what's regarded as "taboo" in many
>> American social circles these days--but not here on Poetryetc, which is an
>> _unmoderated_ discussion list. I understand and share your offended
>> response, Fred, but I don't believe censure is warranted. I'm only one of
>> three listowners here, though, and I don't speak for Alison or Randolph, so,
>> having registered my own opinion--and my sympathy with Fred's sense of
>> outrage--I'll leave it at that.
>>
>> Candice
>>
>>
>>
>> on 12/17/01 10:18 PM, Alison Croggon at [log in to unmask] wrote:
>>
>>> I missed the "towers of evil", but I would be interested to know the
>>> context: a concept which seems not to interest you, perhaps because
>>> it might involve subtlety, ambiguity or thoughtfulness. The
>>> "sentimental leftist America-bashing" is your appellation, and seems
>>> hardly a fair description of much of the discussion on this list. I
>>> am quite serious: why are you here, since you find the whole milieu
>>> so disgusting that you feel it necessary to "pay (us) back"?
>>>
>>> A
>>>
>>>
>>>> Alison Croggon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Frederick, I don't know why you're part of this list, since
>>>>> discussion seems the least of your interests.
>>>>>
>>>>> A
>>>>>
>>>> My comments have been at about the same level as others on the list;
>>>> they simply don't share the same sentimental-leftist America-bashing
>>>> assumptions. "Towers of evil" - which did appear some emails back -
>>>> certainly deserved censure, but probably seemed, in the prevailing point
>>>> of view, an acceptable truism. I pay back in the same coin others
>>>> use.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Alison Croggon
>>>
>>> Home page
>>> http://www.users.bigpond.com/acroggon/
>>> Masthead
>>> http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/
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