Mark
not necessarily much in the way of enlightment this, but one of the reasons
for the instability of vowel pronunciation in English is the high number of
dipthongs in the language, 23 is the count I recall, higher I believe than
any other Western European language.
david b
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Weiss" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: Re: versículos
Erminia: I'm not challenging your authority on this, but I think that I can
clarify what David is getting at. Italian may be more conservative than
other languages, but 700 years isn't much time in most languages in terms
of the issues you mention: core vocabulary and grammar tend to change very
slowly. Whether a continuity of spelling indicates a continuity of
pronunciation is another matter. In theory all Italian vowels could have
changed while the spelling remained the same: the sign "a" may have meant
one sound and only one sound in 1300, and it may mean a different one sound
today. I was taught your version of the history of the language (with the
difference that at the University of Toronto they told me that the
acceptance of the Florentine dialect as normative for Italian was due to
the influence of I Promessi Sposi), but I'm curious what evidence there is
for the stability of the pronunciation of vowels, given that we have no
voice recordings from Dante's time.
English has of course been more dynamic than most languages because of the
gradual infiltration into the native speech of the language of the
conquerors. And then there's that always-mysterious-to-me Great Vowel
Shift, whereby Chaucer's pronunciation became thoroughly archaic over the
course of a mere century. I've never understood the mechanism behind this,
and would love to be informed by anybody out there.
Of course in roaming about in the British Isles I've discovered that the
vowel shift didn't happen as thoroughly as the textbooks indicate--there
are corners of the Lake District where Canute the Wise might feel quite at
home, and I suspect that Henrysoun and Tom Leonard could still chat over a
pint. Rare and endangered vowels survive even in urban pockets. Which is
why I like to see British films in France--the subtitles are a big help.
OK, off to a day of meetings. I await enlightenment upon my return.
Mark
>On Wed,
>>
>>"La «questione della lingua»
>>The "question of the language", an attempt to establish linguistic norms
>and
>>codify the language, engrossed writers of all persuasions. Grammarians
>>during the 15th and the 16th centuries attempted to confer upon the
>>pronunciation, syntax, and vocabulary of 14th-century Tuscan the status of
>a
>>central and classical Italian speech. Eventually this classicism, which
>>might have made Italian another dead language, was widened to include the
>>organic changes inevitable in a living tongue.
>>
>>In the dictionaries and publications of the Accademia della Crusca,
founded
>>in 1583, which was accepted by Italians as authoritative in Italian
>>linguistic matters, compromises between classical purism and living Tuscan
>>usage were successfully effected. The most important literary event of the
>>16th century did not actually take place in Florence. In 1525 the Venetian
>>Pietro Bembo (1470-1547) set out his proposals (Prose della volgar
lingua -
>>1525) for a standardized language and style: Petrarca and Boccaccio were
>his
>>models and thus became the modern classics. Therefore, the language of
>>Italian literature is modeled on that spoken in Florence in the 15th
>>century."..
>>
>>Which seems to suggest the standardized literary form of Italian is based
>on
>>a model which postdates Dante by at least a century, and recall that
>>modelling does not mean absolute identity, amd most certainly implies that
>>modern literary Italian, let alone its spoken multiplicities, would not be
>>identical to the language Dante spoke.
>>
>>david bircumshaw
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>I have a problem with this post - David....BOCCACCIO was actually born in
>1313, and was only a child aged 8 when DANTE died at the age of 56. Do you
>think that in the same identical town of Florence, the current language
>spoken by people could so dramatically change - so as to stand as a totally
>different model to dear Cesare Bembo, as you seem to suggest?
>
>And PETRARCA himself who was born in 1304 was himself already 17 when Dante
>died as a still rather young man, being as Boccaccio, Dante's contemporary
>fellow. Would you think that the language your children or student use can
>be ever regarded as considerably different from yours David, as to stand as
>a different model for a national language? Boccaccio and Petrarca ,
>moreover , admired Dante and were their followers (Petrarca in particular
>in his use of the sonetto form). Trust me...it is the Divine Comedy the
>first model for the present Italian idiom.
>
>Therefore, let's correct the wrong information suggested. There is not a
>century between Dante's language and that of Petrarca and Boccaccio's.
>Being an Italian speaker and a reader of Petrarca, Boccaccio, Dante, I can
>assure you that even if there was a century of distance, there would have
>been NO difference
>whatsoever.
>Let me quote from a friend of Dante, Cavalcanti who I consider the
>greatest model of all:
>
>Io vo' come colui ch' e' for di vita
>che pare a chi lo sguarda como sia
>fatto di rame o di pietra o di legno
>e si conduca sol per maestria
>e porti ne lo core una ferita]
>che sia com'egli e' morto
>aperto segno.
>
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