Thanks for that Paul, I've always to join the chattering classes
db
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Murphy <[log in to unmask]>
To: david.bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: Haibun
> What is the point in all this intellectual
> psychobabble? isn't the point of any good writing
> just to talk honestly and openly about your feelings
> and emotions, is there a need of any greater
> dialectic, with form minimal and graceful? Who cares
> what some Japanese wrote in 1409, he woke up, wrote a
> ditty, and called it a haiku or a haibun, he probably
> never thought the more of it, soon after people
> imitated him, or her, soon after this Professors of
> Rhetoric got together and put a catalogue of prosody
> on the library shelf. What more is there to say. By
> refusing to acknowledge the rules as I do, by writing
> about how I feel, and making up my own rules as I go
> on (not that they are rules anyway), I feel liberated
> from the talkers, the chattering classes, who do
> nothing but join mailbases, and idle away their hours
> in talking about the Korean fartnoise form, who
> cares?PM
> --- "david.bircumshaw" <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > Trevor, thanks for Saikaku, that's a name new to me.
> > I like his 'portfolio'.
> >
> > The 'prosimetron' I burbled about earlier is
> > 'prosimetrum', and has roots in
> > the West back to the 3rd century B.C.
> >
> > Boethius is a 'classic' example.
> >
> > While the Chinese had 'Fu': 'rhymeprose'.
> >
> > Apparently some authorities see lyric itself as
> > initially emerging as 'sung'
> > sections of a prose background. Stepping forwards
> > from a medley. I like
> > that.
> >
> > david bircumshaw
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Trevor Joyce <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 7:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: Haibun
> >
> >
> > > Kent: at the risk of a little 'auto-puffery', can
> > I suggest my own Trem
> > > Neul (kindly included by Alison in the fourth
> > issue of Masthead) as an
> > > attempt, in part, to tease out some of these
> > possibilities of hybrid
> > > verse/prose form, echoing not only Basho, but also
> > middle-Irish forms
> > which
> > > interweave the two. The experience of a specific,
> > nineteenth-century,
> > > journey is central.
> > >
> > > And, David, if you're exploring European/Japanese
> > analogues at the time of
> > > Basho, you might be innerested in Ihara Saikaku
> > who, apart from a few
> > > solo-haiku marathons, passed his time writing the
> > fictional autobiography
> > > of a prostitute, and some get-rich-quick manuals
> > in the manner of Defoe.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Trevor
> > >
> > > >The classic example of haibun, Alison, is Basho's
> > Narrow Road to the Deep
> > > >North. There are numerous translations. One of my
> > favorites is Cid
> > Corman's,
> > > >though the title is different in his version.
> > Basho's is a
> > > >poetic/philosophic daybook. The experience of the
> > journey, you could say,
> > is
> > > >given as the narrow "plot"; the deep north is
> > where the text goes.
> > > >
> > > >I was vaguely thinking of haibun as unused
> > possiblity for contemporary
> > > >poetry in that "narrower" sense-- not as a
> > textual canvass upon which
> > poetry
> > > >and prose are collaged, like in Patterson, say,
> > but as a kind of drama
> > > >against which the "I" wanders forward and with a
> > sense of assumed purpose
> > or
> > > >destination, but without the strictures of
> > Western "plot". In fiction,
> > the
> > > >Japanese came to develop this idea into
> > "shishosetsu" or "novel without
> > > >plot". Akutagawa Ryunosuke was a central
> > proponent of the mode, and there
> > > >was a great debate in the 1920's between
> > defenders of the shishosetsu and
> > > >proponents of "Western plot" like Tanizaki
> > Junichiro.
> > > >
> > > >So I'm wondering if "shishosetsu" is a general
> > idea within which some
> > > >generic experiment by English-language poets
> > might take place.
> > > >
> > > >Kent
> > >
> >
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