Candace,

Basically you've lost me. Richard a racist? No? CP

Candice Ward wrote:

> Ahhh, next you'll be denying that you as good as called Richard a racist.
> Come on, Carlo, this neoliberal softshoe is unworthy of you, man. You've
> always seemed of the truth-and-justice AS the-American-way school--and to
> have defended it with the heart and vocal power of a lion up to now. (And
> when did you start believing what you read in the newspaper?)
>
> Sorry if I seem to be going jingo on you, but you seem to have gone
> Manifestly Western Destiny on me!
>
> Candice
>
> > Candice. Don't kill the messenger. I was just reporting what was printed in a
> > Washington Post/Newsweek pole e.g. only 27 % of African Americans supported
> > retaliation in fact the only group surveyed to fall into that category. If you
> > are claiming that the Post/Newsweek pole is "false" for example propaganda, I
> > have no problem with that. But don't go jingo on me.
> >
> > I very clearly was not referring to "independence of mind" as regards the very
> > limtied correspondence on this list but again transmitting an observation of
> > Alexis de Tocqueville's which many commentators on American culture have
> > addressed and which I find extremely pragmatic. Whether Dillon expresses views
> > or demonstrates any real independence of thought, is, itself, a subject of
> > open
> > to debate among those with the discernment to do so. CP
> >
> > Candice Ward wrote:
> >
> >> Carlo wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The only segment of the American population that does not support the
> >>> current belligerence is African Americans. (Native Americans probably
> >>> have not been canvassed.) The reasons for this is obvious. The kind of
> >>> racism that Dillon embodies toward the Middle East is inflicted upon
> >>> African Americans daily. I live in a predominantly African American
> >>> community, in part, so that I can be around people with the sanity and
> >>> wisdom that comes from tremendous continual suffering.
> >>
> >>     The claim in your first sentence is false. I find it irresponsible as
> >> well, as I find unconscionable your use of the very real sufferings of US
> >> blacks in this self-serving way.
> >>
> >> The opposition to the war being waged against Afghanistan emerged well
> >> before yesterday, so I'm sure you know how unequivocally it cuts across
> >> color lines and many other lines (age, gender, class, occupation, education,
> >> etc.).
> >>
> >> As for the lack of "independence of mind" you lament below, one of the few
> >> people demonstrating that here is Richard Dillon. I don't agree with or
> >> endorse his political views in this instance, but I'd go to the wall--if any
> >> are left (pun intended)--for his right to express them and for the good it
> >> does me to hear them from the place I occupy by virtue of my own views.
> >> Anyone whose beliefs are too fragile to withstand his challenges is equally
> >> free to remain deaf to them by means of a filter. Maybe it would be good for
> >> Richard to have his views challenged in their own right rather than being
> >> subjected to name-calling and other childish personal attacks, which never
> >> change anyone's mind--except about the character of the name-caller, who
> >> gains nothing by such moves and stands to lose respect instead.
> >>
> >> Time we all grew up, wouldn't you agree?
> >>
> >> Candice
> >>
> >>> One of the crucial lessons you can glean from Dillon and the poles is
> >>> that in America participatory democracy of necessity must remain a
> >>> fraud. Secondly, that for all the talk of former Soviet propaganda
> >>> networks, the U.S. domestic network is second to none. After all Edward
> >>> Bernays' public relations served as the model for Nazi Germany.
> >>> American's dependence on their elites is virtually total--no
> >>> "independence of mind" as de Tocqueville discerned. Americans would be
> >>> helpless without this social contract by which all authority resides in
> >>> the few in proportion to all responsibility being bartered away for
> >>> consumption by the many. As long as the actuarials tilt toward a
> >>> relatively unvictimized archetypal white majority class in the material
> >>> care of the elites, nothing will change here, and since America is an
> >>> economic and military empire change for those abroad will have to be of
> >>> a violent nature or not occur at all. In fact, U.S. domestic and foreign
> >>> hegemony and its material expression, like gasoline at $1.50 a gallon,
> >>> will get only fractionally worse for everyman while they continue to get
> >>> exponentially better for the elites e.g. those who sell gasoline, which
> >>> is to say they will get for worse for the poor and reach eschatological
> >>> proportions for the environment.
> >
> >
> >
> > Candice Ward wrote:
> >
> >> Carlo wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The only segment of the American population that does not support the
> >>> current belligerence is African Americans. (Native Americans probably
> >>> have not been canvassed.) The reasons for this is obvious. The kind of
> >>> racism that Dillon embodies toward the Middle East is inflicted upon
> >>> African Americans daily. I live in a predominantly African American
> >>> community, in part, so that I can be around people with the sanity and
> >>> wisdom that comes from tremendous continual suffering.
> >>
> >>     The claim in your first sentence is false. I find it irresponsible as
> >> well, as I find unconscionable your use of the very real sufferings of US
> >> blacks in this self-serving way.
> >>
> >> The opposition to the war being waged against Afghanistan emerged well
> >> before yesterday, so I'm sure you know how unequivocally it cuts across
> >> color lines and many other lines (age, gender, class, occupation, education,
> >> etc.).
> >>
> >> As for the lack of "independence of mind" you lament below, one of the few
> >> people demonstrating that here is Richard Dillon. I don't agree with or
> >> endorse his political views in this instance, but I'd go to the wall--if any
> >> are left (pun intended)--for his right to express them and for the good it
> >> does me to hear them from the place I occupy by virtue of my own views.
> >> Anyone whose beliefs are too fragile to withstand his challenges is equally
> >> free to remain deaf to them by means of a filter. Maybe it would be good for
> >> Richard to have his views challenged in their own right rather than being
> >> subjected to name-calling and other childish personal attacks, which never
> >> change anyone's mind--except about the character of the name-caller, who
> >> gains nothing by such moves and stands to lose respect instead.
> >>
> >> Time we all grew up, wouldn't you agree?
> >>
> >> Candice
> >>
> >>> One of the crucial lessons you can glean from Dillon and the poles is
> >>> that in America participatory democracy of necessity must remain a
> >>> fraud. Secondly, that for all the talk of former Soviet propaganda
> >>> networks, the U.S. domestic network is second to none. After all Edward
> >>> Bernays' public relations served as the model for Nazi Germany.
> >>> American's dependence on their elites is virtually total--no
> >>> "independence of mind" as de Tocqueville discerned. Americans would be
> >>> helpless without this social contract by which all authority resides in
> >>> the few in proportion to all responsibility being bartered away for
> >>> consumption by the many. As long as the actuarials tilt toward a
> >>> relatively unvictimized archetypal white majority class in the material
> >>> care of the elites, nothing will change here, and since America is an
> >>> economic and military empire change for those abroad will have to be of
> >>> a violent nature or not occur at all. In fact, U.S. domestic and foreign
> >>> hegemony and its material expression, like gasoline at $1.50 a gallon,
> >>> will get only fractionally worse for everyman while they continue to get
> >>> exponentially better for the elites e.g. those who sell gasoline, which
> >>> is to say they will get for worse for the poor and reach eschatological
> >>> proportions for the environment.