On Thu, 24 May 2001 00:28:55 -0700, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
>OK, glad to know that I misunderstood.
>
>At 08:24 AM 5/24/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>>Mark, no, I never said such a think, and of course I could envere have
>>stated such a thing about "superiority" of one language over the other.
>>This is not what I said. You also din not previously wrote what you are
>>writing now about Manzoni...
>>First of all, I am not Florentien, I am from Napoli (a region which like
>>all the other Italian regions, in spite of the Unification, still keep
>>afresh and alive its dialect which has its own vocabulary and grammar, as
>>all the other italic dialects, like the SICILIAN: a phenoemnon that makes
>>all Italian bilingual). Naples and Sicily have had intellectuals and
>>writers of great stature, but beyond popular folk songs and theatre plays,
>>no work of Philosophy, Rethoric, Politics, Criticisms has have been
written
>>in Neapolitan after the coming in disuse of Latinate forms. And this has
>>nothing to do with the Unification or the fact that educations had to rely
>>of a national syllabus. Century before Mazzini, Cavour and garibaldi came
>>to decide that enough was enough of the Borbons around in the Reign of the
>>Two Sicily, and went to liberate the oppressed Southern Regions, to make
>>one country, the neutral official language of all these regions had
already
>>settled itself on the model of the Florentine. And this is not because
>>Florentien was superior, far from it...all languages are equally
>>noble...and potentially strilking...depends whod eals with it and what
>>achievements are made and what texts remain and are spread.
>>So, the sentence trhat follows is not to be attroibuted to me. Also, it
was
>>not emrely fprtunate that Florentien became popular as to impose itself as
>>such: not merely fortunate.....(Florence had great men who had already
been
>>as successful as late Garibaldi and his army to unify the country's
>>literary production under a linguistic point of view ).
>>
>>
>>>But there's something truly disturbing here. Florentine dialect in
Dante's,
>>>or Manzoni's, or our own time was not inherently superior to all of
Italy's
>>>other dialects, as you seem to feel, nor was it uniquely useful for
>>>expression, it was merely more fortunate. I can certainly understand
loving
>>>one's own dialect. That doesn't make it better.
>>>
>>>I remember that Dante toyed with writing the Commedia in Provencal. Had
he
>>>done so Florentine might have become the normative dialect of Italian or
>>>not. Some dialect or other would have, but not until the movement for
>>>unification required that there be one.
>>>
>>>Mark
>>>
>>>At 12:38 AM 5/24/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>>>>I was taught your version of the history of the language (with the
>>>>>difference that at the University of Toronto they told me that the
>>>>>acceptance of the Florentine dialect as normative for Italian was due
to
>>>>>the influence of I Promessi Sposi), but I'm curious what evidence there
>>is
>>>>>for the stability of the pronunciation of vowels, given that we have no
>>>>>voice recordings from Dante's time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>....Toronto is a wonderful university but literary informations and/or
>>>>notions sometimes travel in an odd way:
>>>>the authentic story is this: When Alessandro Manzoni wrote his I
Promessi
>>>>Sposi, being "Lombardo" (from the region Lombardia where Milan is), and
>>>>therefore talking a language affected by Austro-Hungaric influences,
>>before
>>>>publication, he more or less stated (exactly) this: "I shall go to clean
>>my
>>>>work in the waters of the Arno river...” , a quite striking statement
>>that
>>>>became legendary because Manzoni was such an intellectual and a master
of
>>>>style that this modest submissive attitude towards the classics has
always
>>>>been used by teachers in school to stimulate the students to do the
>>same….
>>>>
>>>>Manzoni meant to say that he felt the need to refine his style on the
>>model
>>>>of the classics provided by the Florentine writers....
>>>>
>>>>Therefore, it is not I Promessi Sposi a model for Italian, but vice-
versa
>>>>it was the Florentine and Florentine writers the model for Manzoni's I
>>>>Promessi Sposi.
>>>>
>>>>Now, I wonder who taught you this twisted information....
>>>>
>>>>: )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (Ah, I have such a sore-throat tonight...I went for the third time to
>>>>watch "Capitan Corelli's Mandolin " here in Oxford and I really fell in
>>>>love with Nicolas Cage, cried and wanted to heal his wounds...)
>>>>
>>
As an Italian speaker (though not native), I was going to enter the debate
regarding Dante, Manzoni, etc, and give some of the information that
Erminia has posted. She got in first, which is of course only right in
relation to Italian.
I have one question, though, for Erminia. I have been absent from the list
for quite a while; I remember that last year there was quite a lot of
debate as to who you were, and whether you even existed! I know this basic
existential question is very old hat for everyone else on the list, but
please clarify for me : do you exist, and, if so, who are you? Where are
you? You would appear to be an Italian academic at Oxford, but that could
of course be the creation of some academics with too few papers to grade.
I accept that I also have too little to do, which leads me to revive old
debates about other people's existence or otherwise.
Stuart (really)
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