On 12 Nov 2000, at 20:38, shirley sharon-zisser wrote:
> More
> pertinent perhaps for this list, is not poetry a form of philosophy, a
> reflection on the psyche, and hence on passion? From this perspective, it
> is immaterial whether ot not Diotima was a historical figure.
1. If you say that a real prophetess named Diotima taught both
Socrates and Plato, as you did, then the historical accuracy of your
statement is quite material and open to challenge. Facts exist. You
persistently advance false statements as selfevident truths and, when
challenged, try to evade the consequences by transvaluing the
issues in a way that saves you. One might call this a sort of
postmodernist version of the old need "phainomena sozdein."
2. Philosophy is not poetry, though in a few cases some
philosophical discourse rises to the level of prose poetry. The main
Western tradition from the Ionian scientists through Plato and
Aristotle down to Spinoza, Hume, Kant and Heidegger--with that little
useless vestigial organ Derrida growing out of him--is based on
reason: nous, phronesis, episthmh. One can find similar tendencies
in Confucian and Neo-Confucian thought. Trying reading Zhang
Zai.
> I have a couple of other questions, pertinent, I think, to a discussion of
> Renaissance poetry, which we all agree, looked to the ancients and repeted
> their thinking with a difference. Why, from your position, would Plato want
> to avoid the appearance of constructing a philosophical argument that has
> its roots in homosexual attraction? Do you believe Renaissance poets, such
> as Spenser or Barnfield, would have wished to avoid such appearance when
> they related to the ancients?
1. I don't think the Renaissance poets mutatis mutandis really knew
or understood ancient thought--especially Greek thought--very well.
They certainly misunderstood a lot of the literature, though often in a
creative way. The very attempt to filter as much of the Classical
tradition as possible through a Christian lens guarantees pretty
thorough distortion. Witness the manipulation of Plato, Aristotle and
Plotinus to provide a metaphysical framework for theology. I myself
am not interested in Spenser or any other period poet as a reflector
of Classical traditions. What interests me is the poetic product, not
what they used, misused, misunderstood or distorted to create the
product.
2. Plato does construct a philosophical argument, but he puts it in
the mouth of the fictitious Diotima for the reasons I gave.
3. I don't know what personally motivated the Renaissance poets
and believe the intentional and biographical fallacies should be kept
high on our critical horizon. A legal charge of homosexuality could
in those days lead to a very prolonged and nasty death. There was
no honest way then, as there is probably no way now, for a
Christian culture to square Christianity with the Classical world's
toleration for the full spectrum of sexuality and its free public
expression. The same could be said for many other areas of Greco-
Roman culture. Only in the past few decades have we begun to get
accurate translations of Classical literature free of bowdlerization
and priggish censorship--and much of that can't be used in high
school (violent parental reaction) or university classes (idpol and PC
considerations). Any Renaissance poet who wanted to stay free of
the law had to conceal potentially dangerous religious, emotional
and political sentiments very carefully. That was particularly
important for those who dallied with the pastoral tradition which, in
the ancient world, is suffused with considerable homosexual
ambience.
4. Neither Derrida nor Lacan have anything intelligent to say
specifically about Plato or his thought. Postmodernistists invariably
distort the historical and philological evidence, as Derrida so
laughably did in his piece on Plato's "pharmacy." I've already stated
my reasons at length for doubting the validity of anything Lacan has
to say about psychology, let alone anything about Classical
philosophy. I doubt you know what the Greeks meant by the terms
"erasths" and "eromenos," but if you do, enlighten me.
==============================================
Steven J. Willett
University of Shizuoka, Hamamatsu Campus
2-3 Nunohashi 3-chome, Shizuoka Prefecture, Japan 432-8012
Voice and Fax: (053) 457-4514
Japan email: [log in to unmask]
US email: [log in to unmask]
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