I'd like to keep not only these options open but others--seeing whores,
theft, sassing people you shouldn't sass, getting into fights, getting
really drunk. I remain myself somewhat
skeptical concerning the current assumption that "sodomy" was a very, very
loose term, that its "discourse" covered a lot of human behavior. I have
just read too many uses of it to mean male-male sex, literally, although
often as just another sin in a list of them. I do agree with Roger that
"lewd" has narrowed its semantic field since Sidney's day. After all, it
used to mean ignorant. Anne Prescott.
On Fri, 13 Oct 2000, Clark Hulse wrote:
> Thanks to Roger for his exact identification of the letter from Walsingham
> to Leicester.
>
> Osborn is surely correct to identify religious heterodoxy and political
> subversion as among the potential referents for "evill practices." I
> think, however, we should not assume that the list of possible referents
> would be limited to those two, unless we can establish mutual-exclusivity
> in the discourses surrounding heterodoxy, subversion, and sodomy. More
> likely, however, is that negative constructions of sodomy would use
> precisely the vocabulary of heterodoxy and subversion, while positive
> constructions use the classicizing vocabulary of friendship. And--to bring
> Marlowe back into it at the level of discourse--what is precisely his
> standard trick is to take the negative vocabulary and invert it, as in his
> remarks about Christ and John reported in the Baines note.
>
> Clark Hulse
> University of Illinois at Chicago
>
>
> >Yes, indeed: perhaps we should get all this back into proportion. Clark's
> >reference is to one cryptic letter from Walsingham to Leicester, d.d. 17
> >October 1572, which passes on a report by someone who has come to Paris from
> >the Frankfurt Fair and has reported to Walsingham the death of "one of the
> >Gentlemen that departed hence with intention to accompany your Nephew Mr
> >Philip Sidney to Heidelberg....who by divers conjectures I took to be the
> >Dean of Winchester, who, as I advertised your Lordship by Mr Argall, I
> >employed to encounter the evill pratices of your said Nephews servants. If
> >therefore your Lordship, he now being void,shall not speedily take order in
> >that behalf (if already it be not done) the young Gentleman yuor Nephew shal
> >be in danger of a very lewd practice, which were great pitie in respect of
> >the rare gifts that are in him." (Digges, Compleat Ambassador, 273; copy BL
> >Ms Harleian 260, fol 348v; quoted in Osborn, _Young Philip Sidney_, 74-75).
> >The Dean of Winchester was John Watson, but he died in 1580. The servants,
> >we know, were a) Lodowick Bryskett (Lodovico Bruschetto), more a companion
> >than a servant; b) Harry White; c) Griffin Madox; and d) John Fisher. "Lewd
> >practices", as Osborn rightly pointed out, was a term generally employed to
> >refer either to religious heterodoxy (e.g. Catholicism) or to political
> >subversion, and often to a (perceived) combination of the two.
> >
> >Roger Kuin, English,
> >York University, Toronto
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Clark Hulse <[log in to unmask]>
> >To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> >Date: October 12, 2000 4:27 PM
> >Subject: Re: affectionate shepherds
> >
> >
> >>The problem of the thesis of Marlowe as Philip Sidney's page-boy is that
> >>when Marlowe was arrested with Baines in the Low Countries in the early
> >>1590s for counterfeiting, and remanded by Robert Sidney back to London, RS
> >>refers to him, if memory serves, as "one Marley, a scholar" or something in
> >>that vein. Doesn't sound as if he's ever heard of the fellow before.
> >>Since Marlowe was claiming to RS that he knows all sorts of important
> >>people back home, RS would likely have handled it very differently if he
> >>knew who Marlowe was, especially in a context where his brother's sacred
> >>reputation might hang in the balace.
> >>
> >>There are, however, traces and hints in the correspondance surrounding the
> >>Sidney/Bryskett trip on the continent about behaviors within the group
> >>about which some of the elders were not happy. All very vague. I can't
> >>give a precise reference offhand, but the Osborne edition of Sidney
> >>selected letters is the place to look.
> >>
> >>In short, Spenser-Harvey-Bryskett should provide enough meat for these
> >>stews without the seasoning of Marlowe.
> >>
> >>Clark Hulse
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Peter C Herman wrote:-
> >>>> Someone in this thread (forgive me, I forget who) mentioned that
> >Spenser's
> >>>>authorship of the SC was a secret all over the block, even though the
> >>>>author is never
> >>>>identified by name in the book itself. However, Spenser's authorship of
> >>>>the Calender
> >>>>was, if known to some, unknown to others. The Yale Edition of the Shorter
> >>>>Poems of
> >>>>Edmund Spenser, for example, reproduces the title page to Robert Burton's
> >>>>copy of
> >>>>the Calender, and directly underneath the title Burton mistakenly
> >>>>ascribes the
> >>>"twelve >Aeglogues proportionable to the twelve monethes"--not the
> >>>commentary--to "E.
> >>>K."
> >>>
> >>>My impression was that Spenser wrote the inroductory letter to Harvey,
> >>>introducing the new poet, and then provided the glossary/commentary
> >>>under the initials 'E.K.'. Maybe he had a 'shepherd' name that began
> >>>with a K? Or a middle name?
> >>>
> >>>>Also, William Webbe reported in A Discourse of English Poetry (1586)
> >>>>that he made >a
> >>>concerted but unsuccessful effort to discover the New Poet's identity.
> >>>Clearly, >some
> >>>people were not in on the joke, and as Webbe writes, people refused to
> >>>tell him >the
> >>>author.
> >>>
> >>>I don't think that it was meant as a joke; it seems that the new poet
> >>>wanted to hide his light under a bushel for some reason.
> >>>
> >>>One poem NOT written by Spenser, but included in his works, is
> >>>'A Pastorall Aeglogue upon the death of Sir Phillip Sidney, Knight,
> >>>Etc.,' by L. B. -- Lodowick Bryskett. This takes the form of a
> >>>discussion between 'Lycon' (presumably Bryskett himself) and
> >>>Colin (presumably Colin Clout, whoever he was). In lines 88-89,
> >>>Lycon mentions that Colin "with him yodest; and with him did scale
> >>>the craggie rocks of th'Alpes and Appenine".
> >>>
> >>>Bryskett did travel with Sidney over the Alps on his travels in 1574
> >>>but Spenser did not -- so Colin was not Spenser in this instance. I
> >>>still maintain that Colin was Marlowe and he was travelling with
> >>>Sidney as his page-boy. Their first stop had been Paris and they
> >>>sheltered in the English embassy during the St. Bartholomew's
> >>>Massacre of the Protestants. Who later wrote a play called 'The
> >>>Massacre at Paris'? Marlowe did...
> >>>
> >>>At the time of 'The Shephearde's Calendar', Spenser and Harvey
> >>>were grown men. Would Spenser have taken gifts from Harvey and
> >>>given them to his girl-friend? No -- but a fourteen year old boy might
> >>>have taken gifts from a 24 year old Sidney and done just that. And
> >>>don't forget that word 'pederastie'....
> >>>
> >>>Peter Zenner
> >>>
> >>>+44 (0) 1246 271726
> >>>Visit my web site 'Zenigmas' at
> >>>http://www.pzenner.freeserve.co.uk
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
>
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