JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for SPM Archives


SPM Archives

SPM Archives


SPM@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

SPM Home

SPM Home

SPM  2000

SPM 2000

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Re: user specified regressors

From:

Richard Perry <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Richard Perry <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 22 Dec 2000 14:59:52 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (165 lines)

Dear Klaus,

A lot of issues are raised by your question, and I don't think that I
will be able to cover all of them in an entirely comprehensible way.
But I'll do my best.

>this is a question regarding user specified regressors:
>In a standard block design (2 sessions, 5 OFF, 5 ON epochs, 10 scans per
>epoch, TR=3sec) we are interested in differential effects of two types of
>events (SOA=3sec) within the activation and also within the baseline
>conditions.
>
>I thought about using the option user specified regressors to model the
>different event types within each condition as follows:
>
>differential events only in the activation condition:
>0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 2 1 2 2 2 1 2 1 0 0 0 0 ... (a total of 100)
>or
>differential events in activation and baseline condition:
>1 1 2 1 2 2 2 1 2 1 2 2 2 1 1 1 2 1 2 1 1 2 1 1 ... (a total of 100)
>
>In the design matrix I received a third column for the regressor.
>
>If I understand the idea of the regressor correctly, setting the column of
>the regressor to 1 and the other columns to 0 in the contrast manager,
>should detect those voxels that are not activated in the baseline
>condition, show an intermediate increase during the activation period at
>type 1 events and more activation at type 2 events (example 1).

Not exactly.   This contrast would detect any voxels in which the
regressor can explain a significant amount of the variance.  Such a
voxel may in fact be showing a shift in baseline between the
'activation' epoch and the 'baseline' epoch, without any response to
the events at all.  Or it may simply be responding to event type 1.
Or it may be responding to all four events, but the average response
during 'activation' is greater than the average response during
'baseline'.

You are not in any sense testing the hypothesis that certain voxels
are 'not activated in the baseline condition' (indeed I am not quite
clear what this statement means, and it certainly doesn't seem to be
the kind of hypothesis that can ever be supported using 'classical'
statistics).  The rest of your statement constitutes at least two
separate hypotheses, that type 1 and type 2 events both produce
positive BOLD responses, and that the response to type 2 events is
greater than the response to type 1 events.  These two hypotheses
would need to be tested with at least two appropriate regressors (see
later).  Voxels which satisfy both of these might be tested for with
a conjunction.

>  In example 2 it should detect those voxels that are activated more
>during type 2
>events compared to type 1 events, irrespective of ON or OFF period.
>
>Is this correct?

Not exactly.  SPM99 would mean correct this regressor, so that it
would become something starting -0.5 -0.5 +0.5 -0.5 +0.5 ..... etc.
This would test for voxels which give a significantly greater
response to type 2 events than type 1 events during the course of the
experiment.  However, you are NOT explicitly testing the hypothesis
that there is no difference between 'activation' and 'baseline'
conditions in this regard (which is what your 'irrespective' might be
taken as implying).

But let's concentrate on your model.

This doesn't seem to be a very good model for the expected BOLD
response.  This is not really what the 'user-specifed regressors'
option is intended to be used for.  Normally one would try to set up
this part of the model in the standard 'epoch/events' part of SPM99,
as you suggest later.

>If this is correct, the delay of the hrf would not be taken into account.
>Could this be compensated by adding a 0 at the beginning of the sting vector?

Very crudely, yes.  But convolving with the hrf must be a better
option.  You don't really expect the BOLD response to look exactly
like the neural response, but just shifted by 3 seconds.  Convolving
with a single 'standard' hrf for the whole brain isn't perfect, but
is certainly likely to do a better job.

Another weakness of your present model is that there is an assumption
that your type 2 events produce exactly twice as much BOLD response
as your type 1 events.  Any deviation from this assumption will end
up in your error column, reducing the significance of your results
(and adding structure to your error term which strictly speaking
invalidates your inference).

>  A different option would be to model the different event-types with an
>event-related hrf-model. This however might be limited by the fact that the
>SOA equals the TR and that there is no other jittering or null-events.

This limitation is not a property of using this particular means of
analysis.  By not having any jitter, you are limiting your sampling
resolution of data after each event to your TR, regardless of how you
analyze the data.  But given the time-course of the BOLD response,
data sampled at 3 second intervals can still give very useful results.

Modelling the data using 'events' and 'epochs' generated by SPM99
must be a better option.  How exactly you do it will depend on your
underlying beliefs about the physiology.

A reasonably comprehensive model would contain all of the following 5
regressor: a 'box-car' regressor for your 'activation' epochs, and 4
event trains for [type 1 events, activation], [type 1 events,
baseline], [type 2 events, activation] and [type 2 events, baseline].
In this model, you are not making any assumptions about the ratio of
BOLD response to events type 1 and 2.  You are also allowing for the
possibility of an interaction between type 1 vs type 2 events and
activation vs baseline.  For example, it may be that there is no
difference between the responses to events 1 and 2 during the
baseline condition, whereas there is a difference during the
activation condition.

A weakness of this model might be that your events appear to be quite
close together, and as a result, your 'box-car' regressor may be
almost identical to the sum of the two 'activation epoch' event
trains.  Certainly these regressors will be far from independent.  In
this case, you might want to omit the boxcar regressor entirely and
just model the events.

You may, alternatively, have reasons for believing that the responses
to events type 1 and 2 will not change during the experiment,
although they may be superimposed onto a different background level
of BOLD.  In this case the four event regressors could be collapsed
into two.  However, you have so many degrees of freedom in most fMRI
experiments that this is very unlikely to be necessary.

>Are there any other options, for example combining the box-car design and
>the specified regressor in certain contrasts?

You can compare them in contrasts if you wish to, but of course in
comparing events with epochs, you are not really comparing like with
like, so the results are not readily interpretable.  You probably
have the additional problem that you events and your epochs are very
far from orthogonal.  So although comparing the response to type 1
events to type 2 events is perfectly legitimate, you can't really
just look for the main effect of type 1 events, or the main effect of
the 'activation' epoch.  If you wanted to do this, you would have to
fiddle about with orthogonalizing regressors.  The partitioning of
'shared' variance which can either be modelled by the box-car or by a
linear combination of the the event regressors is arbitrary and will
be determined by noise, which is another reason why comparing events
to epochs is not really useful.

User-specified regressor were really designed for putting in more
complex regressors such as scales for modelling reaction times or
subject's accuracy etc.  For simple models in which you have
straightforward events and/or epochs, it is just much easier to build
your design matrix using the 'event/epoch' options.  Even if you
didn't want to convolve with the hrf (although it is difficult to see
why you wouldn't!), the option to omit the convolution is offered to
you.

Best wishes,

Richard.
--
from: Dr Richard Perry,
Clinical Lecturer, Wellcome Department of Cognitive Neurology,
Institute of Neurology, Darwin Building, University College London,
Gower Street, London WC1E 6BT.
Tel: 0207 679 2187;  e mail: [log in to unmask]

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

May 2024
April 2024
March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
2006
2005
2004
2003
2002
2001
2000
1999
1998


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

For help and support help@jisc.ac.uk

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager