Hi, Hugh,
in answer to your question, you are here admitting that the strong
metaphorical imagery of
the "dead horse" was intended to be referred to the "persona" of Susanne.
If one had to analyze the words as they were disposed on the page
in relation to this "persona" as cohenciding with a real being, then you
could have risked to
sound offensive, suggesting a death. I imagine you, being a poet, used
intentionally this imagery and did not for a moment
think one may read it in a literal sense. And indeed I don't . Being a
writer, I see this use of imagery as more than legitimate and it made me
think of Dali'.
The richness of the metaphor is our tool, as writers. So, nobody is
complaining about your register and tone.
But then, in the same post, you report a sentence
which you are supposing me to be the author of, but I might also be not. In
fact, Hugh,
imagine a simpler scenario where I actually asked a student to interact, on
my behalf, with the list, while I was away,
and left her free to play the "persona" she wished to be, and so on...)
The incriminating sentence was:
" I still find fascinating the idea of
> accomplishing the dissolution of ones person by means of creativeness."
Now, for a question of logic, fairness and equality, being you the author of
a sentence implying a (dead ) horse
(how did the horse die? One could ask...)
tell me why do you find offensive Susanne's allusion to a dissolution "by
means of creativeness."?
And why the person uttering this sequence of words is now on trial?
If one has to analyze in a literal sense Poetryetc list posts, my God, it
would be an endless recrimination.
Since language here seems above all a social phenomenon, one bears
responsibility collectively for what is being said .
There are no ivory towers and everybody is equal exposed.
First and foremost, in terms of importance, I wish to ask you if one is
necessarily authorized to say that the sentence of poor Susanne ( "
dissolution of the person by mean of creativeness")
is necessarily to be taken as referring to "concrete" suicide?
If we assume the right mental attitude and think linguistically, then maybe
the basic question here has to be found elsewhere.
Then we can proceed to the issue which is probably at the heart of your
protest.
It is a literary case study, anyhow, suicide among poets, and many of them
ended their lives after having written poems or a letter to offer
theoretical justification to their action
("The woman is perfected? her body wears the smile of accomplishment" -
Plath .
"Tutto questo fa schifo. Non una parola, un gesto" - Pavese, and so on...)
Susanne was merely alluding to those self-myth-making theories.
So, please reconsider under this light
what was posted.
"Dissolution" is such a wide term and to me, as a reader, it can mean - as
it possibly was intended to meant - that in being creative you might
actually transcend and dissolve the ego in favor of a persona.
I myself have written my doctoral thesis of suicidal poets
and my students know about it. I have studied in detail the work of Pavese
and Plath in connection with the idea (not the actual fact) of such a drive
as creatively interpretable - in the realm of poetry (of course).
And the sentence was quite obvious " dissolution ....by means of
creativeness...."
By the way, (that message was maybe posted several times because of my
student's inexperience with computers and lists.
Or maybe because some fault in the machine itself...but I can only make
suppositions.)
I find "Susanne" as a name very very beautiful. I do not like
Erminia(antique, noble, sweet) at all, and when I firs joined the list, if I
remember well, in one of my posts I stressed how much I would have loved to
be called "Susanne".
My student "Sue" is a real person and you surely detected the difference in
style and content as well probably the mockery imitation of my English. ( I
do not make all those horrible spelling mistakes, do I). I might let her
take over sometimes again. She is great fun. Her voice quality is so
female - pitch, intonation patterns and her linguistic habits are still
those of a teenager.
(See her poems.)
Warmest regards (from an adult voice)
Pseudo-Suisanne
----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Tolhurst <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2000 5:27 AM
Subject: Re: Holiday in Montecarlo (EP call home )
> susanne <[log in to unmask]> wrote:-
>
> If the dead horse was intended
> to be metaphorical,
> and you were alluding to me,
> you must be right in a way...
>
> Yes, it was a metaphorical allusion to the
> dead horse of your pseudonymous personae.
> Some of the things this pseudonym has contributed
> to poetryetc were offensive or could easily
> be seen as offensive. I refer to the repeated (six
> times) posting "poets and suicide" on July 1, which
> followed another post called "poets and suicide"
> which you signed off:-
>
> I still find fascinating the idea of
> accomplishing the dissolution of ones person by means of creativeness.
>
>
> Susanne
>
> Youth suicide and mental ill-health was under constructive discussion at
> poetryetc at the time: this sort of stuff (your "suicide posts")
> as history, means that your more recent
> posts seem disagreeable by association. Alison Croggon
> is not wrong to say "Pseudo-Susanna has (I think) made
> some interesting points" but as you seem increasingly to
> suggest your real identity is Erminia Passananti, can you
> please drop the (sometimes offensive) pseudonymous
> charade. You should also consider an apology for the
> "suicide" posts.
>
> Your early hoaxing was offensive in context.
>
> please desist with this particular pseudonym
>
> yours faithfully
>
> Hugh Tolhurst
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 12:24 AM
> Subject: Re: Holiday in Montecarlo
>
>
> > pseudonymous Susanna wrote:-
> > >
> > > "Therefore, to react by telling a
> > > satirist that he is
> > > being "boring" , is the wrong strategy."
> > >
> > > & it was 'virtual flogging' that I suggested
> > > partly because her virtual horse is dead,
> > > decomposing, on the nose, unfunny.
> > >
> > > unsatirically
> > >
> > > Hugh
> >
> > Hugh, I repeat,
> >
> > I see no "horse" dead or alive , around, and I myself do not wish to be
> > funny or satirical.
> > Far from it. To be honest,
> > I see life and human
> > interactions and very tragic, stiff, ungenerous, oppressive,
undervaluing,
> > immature, unstimulating, unproductive and unworthy, ect. ect. etc.#
> > (I was talking about exchanged jokes at the expenses of this and that
and
> I
> > have
> > been more than ones the target of it in this list, even when unable to
> > react.
> > I don't care, I do not get offended. I am not sensible to it, and you
are
> > welcome to
> > go on since I do not feel it as personal. ) If the dead horse was
intended
> > to be metaphorical,
> > and you were alluding to me,
> > you must be right in a way...quite frankly, Hugh,
> > I am not even able to make
> > my old neighbor Reginald laugh.
> > matter of fact, when people laugh at something I am saying, it is never
> > for an intentional joke of mine. Their amusement remains a mystery.
> >
> > Indeed, I am posting Marziale, his satire, not mine. Mine are only those
> > unrequested and unpaid translations for your to read which I am
> > nevertheless
> > making from Latin (my language)into a language (English) which is not
> mine
> > and that I do not master.
> >
> >
> > Satirical poetry and theatre?! I like it. That's it.
> > And I rather prefer this kind of poetry to that which make my heart ache
> > with pity.
> > I have had already quite a lot one reasons for weeping in my own life.
> > Therefore,
> > I read those poets who can transmit some argute insight into out common
> > sense.
> > No point in getting hungry, really.
> >
> > Susistro
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Hugh Tolhurst <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2000 5:26 AM
> > Subject: Holiday in Montecarlo
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
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