Debbie Comerford <[log in to unmask]>wrote:-
Recently a
number of reviews of Australia's 'emergent poetries' have condemned the
poetry for being too "microcosmic" and thus finds 'new' oz poetry
apolitical. The problem with such a perspectives is that these readings do
not seek the 'politics of complex thought' but the orthodox politics, the
'molar politics'.
and though my backchannel appears to have stayed that way,
to explain my confusion, compare and contrast (a) Jennifer Maiden
in Overland 150:-
"Hugh Tolhurst's Filth and Other Poems is also rebellious in tone -
which again makes its microcosmic presentation a pity."
with (b) the opening lines of "in the red" which is the sixth poem
in "Horse Lyrics" (Filth p. 60):-
There are one & a half million people in US prisons
& with mandatory life sentences for traffick in drugs
they're growing old, they're taking lots of Panadol.
My ex crashed her Laser & can't make New York
& with mandatory life sentences for traffick in drugs
complete disasters save you from bigger ones.
Hugh Tolhurst
----- Original Message -----
From: <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 11:13 AM
Subject: Digest of poetryetc - volume 1 #298
> Subjects of messages in this digest:
>
> Re: reply to P Nicolayev
> Re: Slow reply from Ron Silliman
> Re: - the UN and the Australian context
> Island magazine launch
> Re: Michael Cuddihy
> Re: women, hilarity
> ps Re: women, hilarity
> Re: view _Blue_
> Re: re -the UN
> Re: Slow reply from Ron Silliman
> Double Life of VERONIQUE
> Food
> RE: women, hilarity
> Re: Moving On or A Code of Practice? A message frrom Rome.
> Re: basia da nobis
> Re: basia da nobis
> politics of complex thought
> Re: politics of complex thought
> Re: politics of complex thought
> Fwd: from the editor, Overland 159 launch tonight
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:29:09 -0700 (PDT)
> From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Scott=20Hamilton?= <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: reply to P Nicolayev
> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> "I can assure you that your view that Davis tried to
> 'assassinate'
> Te Kooti and 'pillaged' his culture would appal and
> distress his
> descendants, and the Ringatu faithful of the
> Turanganui a Kiwa who
> supported and collaborated in his project from start
> to finsih."
>
> You and Leigh Davis, the 'avant-garde', 'oppositional'
> poet who, in his corporate dayjob as a Fay Richwhite
> hitman, helped engineer the sacking of thousands of
> Maori workers from the Railways a few years back? It
> would appear to me that you like 'indigenous' input,
> just so long as it agrees with your point of view.
> Instance: your attitude to Tina Engels-Schwarzpaul's
> meticulous demolition job on your book, an attitude
> not unfairly represented by the following sentence
> from your last posting:
>
>
> "The critique so-called hardly deserved a response
> from us."
>
> Let us hear a couple of excerpts from this
> contemptible critique:
>
> "I talked to a Maori man in his 60s, a native Maori
> speaker and member of the Ringatu Church, who had come
> across the book by chance. He felt bewildered and hurt
> about the way this list was produced, and perceived a
> connection with the pages immediately following, where
> 'hauhau' is linked up with maumau, hoodoo and voodoo:
> "This almost speaks of something sinister...implying
> that it's got all this voodoo stuff in it...Those are
> coming from the Bahamas, don't they?Maumau from
> Africa.Seems like they are suggesting all the same
> thing.'"
>
> Tina goes on to comment, intelligently: "Anyone
> publishing about Maori culture in New Zealand art and
> culture ought to be aware of the history of colonial
> claims and practices to classify notions such as 'art'
> or 'truth'.There is a real and practical danger of
> perpetuating injustices and imperial arrogance through
> ignorance...[Curnow and Davis']engagement with its
> more disturbing sides smacks more of taking for
> artistic effect, than a contribution to the culture
> that already paid the price.In that respect, it is
> even more problematic. As my Maori acquaintance
> wondered, the project might be using the notion of
> bi-culturalism for 'something else.' After all, in his
> view, 'it's not as if this information is something
> new. It's as old as the hills. It doesn't seem to be
> breaking new ground.All I am concerned about is waht
> they were really getting at. That's the part that
> really worries me."
>
> Is it fair for Wystan to say that this "so-called
> critique hardly deserved a response"? List members
> can decide for themselves.
>
>
> Cheers
> Scott
>
>
> X-Apparently-To: [log in to unmask] via
> web802.mail.yahoo.com
> X-Track: 1: 40
> Organization: The University of Auckland
> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 13:17:58 +1200
> Priority: normal
> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b)
> X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-printable to 8bit by
> naga.mailbase.ac.uk id CAA21635
> Subject: Re: reply to P Nicolayev
> From: "Wystan Curnow" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
> X-Unsub: To leave, send text 'leave poetryetc' to
> [log in to unmask]
> Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
> Sender: [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> More snake oil, I fear
> >
> > "The
> > first list: ' poets who talk most about L= poetry'
> is
> > not reliable: if Stead
> > ever has it is has been to mock it. (or do you mean
> we
> > 'pursue a right
> > wing politics?)."
>
>
> > I meant that all the poets in the list I gave have
> > right-wing/conservative political views and/or a
> > record of taking right-wing positions. I fail to see
> > why this should be offensive to the poets mentioned
> -
> > Stead, for instance, has been only too happy to be
> the
> > public face of the right-wing education 'thinktank'
> > the Education Forum, to assert support Rogernomics
> and
> > to oppose electoral reform in public. I suppose he
> > might prefer to be called centre-right, but it's
> > certainly not outrageous to call him a right-winger.
>
>
> But Scott, you were answering Philip's response to
> your assertion
> that L=poetry interested poets pursued right-wing
> politics. My
> response was that Stead was not a L=poetry interested
> poet,
> regardless of his politics, do you dispute that? And
> it is confusing to
> say so. But then, you have a problem mustering
> evidence for the
> 'many' such poets don' t you? It is outrageous to
> claim I have right
> wing views or a record of taking right-wing positions.
>
> >
> > "The next list is not very
> > helpful to you other than it is about as disparate a
> > bunch as you could
> > wish."
> >
> > As I pointed out when I gave it!
>
> No. You said you didn't know why you picked them and
> that they
> were off the top of your head. Does it follow that
> your list was
> therefore disparate group? I have no problem with the
> disparateness,
> but thought it worth pointing out.
>
>
> I was not exactly
> > trying to fill a hall of fame, though I am a fan of
> > all the poets mentioned. I am sure Philip has access
> > to all the standard anthologies and histories, I was
> > trying to throw in a few surprises (though of course
> > Smithyman would be a big part of any history worth
> its
> > salt). God save poets from the anthologists, I guess
> > I'm saying...
> >
> >
> > "Te Kooti: there's never been a published
> collection
> > of his
> > writings--I wish there had been. That he is a poet
> is
> > an invention of
> > Leigh Davis."
> >
> > This statement is extremely annoying. Its arrogance
> > explains why your millionaire mate Davis' book,
> which
> > pillaged Te Kooti and Maori culture in the name of a
> > third-hand postmodernism, has pissed off so many
> > people here in Aotearoa. Davis didn't invent Te
> Kooti
> > as a poet - what gives you the nerve to even say
> that?
> > - he tried to assasinate him. Why don't you respond
> to
> > Tina Engels-Schwarzpaul's extended critique of
> Davis'
> > mess, which she gave the not-inappropriate name
> > 'Between meaning and nonsense'? And if you were able
> > to crawl from the wreckage of your Eurocentric
> mindset
> > for a moment or two, you would be able to realise
> that
> > one does not have to publish with Oxford University
> > Press or be dismembered by Leigh Davis' word
> processor
> > to be a 'poet.'As it happens, many of Te Kooti's
> poems
> > have been published, and I have a folio of them I
> > would be happy to make available to Philip.
>
> Scott, as a poster whose style is to annoy, you
> should not mind the
> annoyed statements you provoke. It is the case, as I
> say, that there is
> no published collection of Te Kooti's writing, and
> that I wish there
> were. My point was, as you say yourself, the work is
> hard to find, and
> undervalued.You are at liberty to question the terms
> of Davis's
> reading of Te Kooti's work, but not that any one else
> has made a such
> serious attempt to present or conceive of Te Kooti as
> an artist and a
> poet. I can assure you that your view that Davis tried
> to 'assassinate'
> Te Kooti and 'pillaged' his culture would appal and
> distress his
> descendants, and the Ringatu faithful of the
> Turanganui a Kiwa who
> supported and collaborated in his project from start
> to finsih. Nor
> would it be supported by Te Kooti's biographer, Judith
> Binney. I was
> the co-editor, with Davis, of what Scott so kindly
> refers to as Davis's
> 'mess'--this is a book/CD publication , Te Tangi a te
> Matuhi (the title
> is that of a Te Kooti patere (or poem if you
> like))published last year.
> The critique so-called hardly deserved a response from
> us.
>
>
> >
> > "Scott, since you are now connecting the University
> of
> > Auckland
> > English Department with poets who you say did (or
> did
> > not in
> > Michele's case) lock their doors while your mates
> got
> > their heads
> > cracked a couple of blocks away in the University
> > Admin. building,
> > and some people will know I work in the English
> > Department, let me
> > just say to all members of this list that the
> > insinuations are malicious,
> > unjust and have no basis in fact."
> >
> >
> > I have no idea whether you locked yourself in your
> > room, and I never said you did.
>
> Again, again. You implied it (as I said-- Scott,
> you claim to like
> robust disciplined argument, but don't play by the
> rules!
>
>
> What I do know is that
> > you, unlike senior English department figures in
> other
> > parts of the country, did not lift a finger to
> condemn
> > the actions of the police and the uni
> administration.
> > Nor, I understand, did you deign to join the junior
> > staff in your department who courageously tried to
> > fight a large funding cut that was threatening their
> > jobs. All of these criticisms are outlined in the
> open
> > letter that has been published in A Brief
> Description
> > of the Whole World. No one has questioned the
> factual
> > basis of these criticisms (critics of the letter
> have
> > instead focused on the relevance of a person's
> > political action, or rather inaction, on an
> asessment
> > of their poetics) but you are most welcome to give
> it
> > a go. If you can refute them, I will retract them.
> You
> > should base any attempt to refute them on what I
> > really say in that document, which you have had a
> > copy of for some months now, not on any imaginary
> > insinuations. Once again, I stress that I am not
> > trying to turn this into a witchhunt,
>
> Why then do I get the impression that's exactly
> what you are doing?
> List members might be interested to know that the
> National
> Government's attack on the university funding in this
> country
> extended over a number of years, but I'm not all
> that sure that they
> will. Or that, adminstrations, staff and students
> were, unsurprisingly,
> all opposed to this campaign that it was a constant
> source of concern
> and periodically of outrage, that sometimes, for
> predictable reasons,
> the pressure set students and/or staff against
> admininstration--this
> was the situation at Victoria, to which Scott refers,
> or put them on
> different paths of resistance, that I am well aware
> the work Tony,
> Michael, and others put into the document they sent to
> the
> newspapers, and was indeed involved in the discussions
> around it.
> I am sure the list doesn't wish to know about the
> union meeetings I've
> been to, how I've voted, and so on. Get off my back,
> Scott.
> Wystan
> but rather build
> > a useful discussion.
> >
> > Cya
> > Scott
> > X-Apparently-To: [log in to unmask] via
> > web804.mail.yahoo.com
> > X-Track: 1: 40
> > Organization: The University of Auckland
> > Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:59:06 +1200
> > Priority: normal
> > X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b)
> > X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-printable to 8bit
> by
> > naga.mailbase.ac.uk id GAA02047
> > Subject: Re: reply to P Nicolayev
> > From: "Wystan Curnow" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > X-Unsub: To leave, send text 'leave poetryetc' to
> > [log in to unmask]
> > Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
> > Sender: [log in to unmask]
> >
> >
> > Hello Scott,
> > This is snake oil you'rr selling here.
> > Philip take no notice. The
> > first list: ' poets who talk most about L= poetry'
> is
> > not reliable: if Stead
> > ever has it is has been to mock it. (or do you mean
> we
> > 'pursue a right
> > wing politics?). See my previous email. The next
> list
> > is not very
> > helpful to you other than it is about as disparate a
> > bunch as you could
> > wish. Te Kooti: there's never been a published
> > collection of his
> > writings--I wish there had been. That he is a poet
> is
> > an invention of
> > Leigh Davis.
> >
> > Scott, since you are now connecting the
> > University of Auckland
> > English Department with poets who you say did (or
> did
> > not in
> > Michele's case) lock their doors while your mates
> got
> > their heads
> > cracked a couple of blocks away in the University
> > Admin. building,
> > and some people will know I work in the English
> > Department, let me
> > just say to all members of this list that the
> > insinuations are malicious,
> > unjust and have no basis in fact.
> > Wystan
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> "Why is it not possible for me to doubt that I have never been on the
moon? And how
> could I try to doubt it? First and foremost, the supposition that perhaps
I have
> been there would strike me as idle. Nothing would follow from it, nothing
be
> explained by it. It would not tie in with anything in my life...
Philosophical
> problems occur when language goes on holiday. We must not separate ideas
from life,
> we must not be misled by the appearances of sentences: we must investigate
the
> application of words in individual language-games" - Ludwig
Wittgenstein
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
> http://mail.yahoo.com/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 15:11:15 +1000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Slow reply from Ron Silliman
> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
>
> >What are the
> >politics of a complex thought?
>
> Aha!
>
> A question I'd like very much to see discussed...
>
> And hoping someone else will start to loosen the knot, as I don't have
> time to untangle those tentacular tendrils.
>
> Best
>
> Alison
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:06:30 +1000
> From: "Hugh Tolhurst" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: - the UN and the Australian context
> Message-Id: <001f01bff208$66ba2a80$5111d7d2@computer>
>
> Dear Paul,
>
> I'm an Australian as John Kinsella is, and we
> are writers of the left, John discusses his
> anarchism in the current Atlanta Review.
>
> I've suggested a regular Melbourne poetry venue
> incorporate the UN reading and feature Dimitris
> Tsaloumas who has experienced Greek life under
> two different anti-democratic regimes (he is 78)
> and Jennifer Strauss who has been involved in PEN/
> Amnesty International for many years.
>
> Our current disagreeable Howard Government often
> trys to wriggle out of its UN convention obligations.
> It resents UN criticism of unfair Australian policies
> like mandatory sentencing in the NT and WA and the
> refusal to apologise for the stolen generation. I'm happy
> to read in the open section at a UN sponsored reading,
> especially where the featured poets are so distinguished.
> I'm also happy that such an event will probably displease
> the Government of Australia, whose disregard for treaties
> about human rights which we have signed through the UN
> is another reason not to vote for them.
>
> Traditionally, Australia has been very UN supportive, and
> prominent post-war Labor politician Herbert 'Doc' Evatt helped
> establish the UN in the early days. Of course, the UN doesn't
> get everything right, but I dislike a government that tells the UN
> to mind its own business, when international standards of
> human rights treatment are applied to Australia's failings
> especially on indigenous issues.
>
> sincerely
>
>
> Hugh Tolhurst etc
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:31:27 +1000
> From: "Ralph Wessman" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Island magazine launch
> Message-Id: <s9771b61.083@ft-gateway>
>
> 5.30 p.m. today, Hobart Bookshop
>
> Poetry by Thomas Lynch, Bev Braune, Rosemary Dobson, Louise Oxley, Ouyang
Yu, Sue Moss, Chris Wallace-Crabbe, Jean Page, Kathleen Dzubeil, Graham
Rowlands and Wendy Morgan in this issue.
>
> Ralph
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:23:28 -0500 (CDT)
> From: David Zauhar <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Michael Cuddihy
> Message-Id:
<[log in to unmask]>
>
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, David Zauhar wrote:
>
> > For anyone thinking about starting a lit mag, Cuddihy's memoir strikes
me
> > as possibly very helpful. If I remember correctly, it's entitled _Call
it
> > Ironwood_, and it's an issue-by-issue account of the magazin's history.
If
> > you ever see the whole run of the thing (30+ issues), you'll first be
> > amazed by the range of poets he and Mary published.
>
> The actual title is _Try Ironwood: An Editor Remembers_. Published in 1990
> by Rowan Tree Press of Boston, introduction by Robert Hass.
>
> DZ
>
> > The memoir is hard enough to find in the U.S., and may be
> > impossible to track down elsewhere, but it's worth looking for.
> > My first sentence implies that this is a how-to book: it's not. It
> > would be more accurate to say it's an (auto)biography of a great poetry
> > magazine.
> >
> > David Zauhar
> >
> > On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Ron Silliman wrote:
> >
> > > It's been noted on the Poetics List that Michael Cuddihy, the poet and
> > > former editor of Ironwood, passed away a few days ago at 68 at his
home in
> > > Arizona. Michael was wheel-chair bound from polio but managed to get
more
> > > things accomplished in his lifetime than 10 fully-abled men. In the
1970s in
> > > particular I would run into him and his wife Mary at George and Mary
Oppen's
> > > flat on Polk Street in San Francisco, during that period when George
was
> > > slipping into that long silence of Alzheimer's disease. I liked
Michael a
> > > great deal and was amazed at how open he was to so many different
kinds of
> > > poetry. He also had a great sense of humor, which made him genuinely
fun to
> > > be around. I miss him already.
> > >
> > > Ron Silliman
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:40:04 -0400
> From: Gudding <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Cc: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: women, hilarity
> Message-Id:
<[log in to unmask]>
>
> Catherine, I apologize for the late reply. Just wanted to say thanks very
> much for
> your post about the "levels" found in jokes and poetry. I like your sketch
> of levels, although
> I'd be less inclined to associate taboo jokes (the dick and fart jokes you
> mention)
> with mere surface or plainness or lack of complication or smallness. I
> think of Aristophanes'
> wonderful use of butts in _The Clouds_ (in which he has Socrates' students
> using their
> rectums as telescopes, butts pointing to the skies, in order to observe
> heavenly bodies)
> or Carol Ann Duffy's extended dick joke sonnet "Frau Freud," or
Bernadette
> Mayer's
> extended narrative about fucking over and over in the shower (and
> everywhere else) or Ron's
> long "Sunset Debris," which plays off cocks, coming, and the act of
> fellatio (among other things).
> It's true the very simplest taboo jokes rely on the mere mention of a
taboo
> word or idea, but
> what I'm saying I guess is that I think dick jokes or fart jokes or cunt
> jokes -- even in their raunchiest
> form -- are very complex (especially socially) and do say something
> sufficiently grand -- or at least
> sufficiently destructive. Aren't taboo jokes meant in many ways to drive
> away a particular kind
> of audience -- or to mime the act of driving away an audience? My point?:
> though the packaging
> of even a minimalist taboo joke can be quite scant (say, providing a
> moniker to one's own genitalia,
> by which I mean referring to one's own pooty by a proper name, for
> instance), this act in itself
> is amazingly complicated and, well, profound. At least to someone born
with
> my taste, which is,
> when it comes to jokes, maybe a bit, umm, forgiving.
>
> Anyway, thanks: I'm grateful for the sketch.
>
> Gabe
>
>
> At 11:48 AM 7/17/00 -0700, Catherine Daly wrote:
>
> >there are "levels" to jokes
> >there are "levels" to poetry
> >
> >A first level joke is generally a dick joke or a fart joke. It exists on
> >the surface, and is
> >(male) physical. These we put in movies for 14 year old boys. I say
> >"we", though only the
> >boys here are writing movies.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:57:40 -0400
> From: Gudding <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: ps Re: women, hilarity
> Message-Id:
<[log in to unmask]>
>
> ps, though I'm not saying that dick and fart jokes aren't often cracked
by,
> as you note, young men (or "yoots" as they say in my part of upstate new
> york) -- I think ARistophanes was only 21 when he wrote _The Clouds_...
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:01:18 -0400 (EDT)
> From: [log in to unmask]
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: view _Blue_
> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
>
> Yeah, Kieslowski's films tend to leave me tongue-tied, too,
> especially the magnificent _Double Life of Dominique_, the
> music for which is again Prizner's and includes a stunning
> choral suite. And in another film of Kieslowski's "Three
> Colors Trilogy," as it's come to be known, _White_, the
> Prizner score constitutes a series of variations on a simple
> Polish folk tune--simple enough to be played on a comb by a
> subway busker, as it had to be given the film's plot.
>
> And and and then there's the final film of the Trilogy, _Red_,
> in which echoes of the previous _White_ and _Blue_ themes occur
> in the plot, the dialogue, and the soundtrack--"wonderful," as
> you say, Andrew, and what else is there to say?
>
> Candice
>
>
> At 09:43 AM 7/20/00 +0800, you wrote:
> >Candice said: _Blue_ is a sort of parable on that conundrum, in
> >fact. Highly recommended--
> >
> >I'll second that: a wonderful movie, worth viewing many times over. I've
> >only ever seen it on video - It would be even better on the big screen. &
> >the music is ... wonderful too. (My vocab has deserted me.)
> >
> >Andrew
> >
> >----------------------------------------
> >Andrew Burke Copywriting
> >[log in to unmask] Creative Writing
> >http://www.bam.com.au/andrew/ Editing
> >----------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 07:06:44 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Ram Devineni <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: re -the UN
> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
>
> Dear List Members:
>
> Let me clear-up any misunderstandings about this
> program that I have read in the previous e-mails.
> First, I do not work for the UN--I own a small poetry
> press based in New York City and publish unknown poets
> (who I believe will become known) and a literary
> journal called Rattapallax which includes a CD
> featuring the poets reading their work.
>
> The basic goal of the UN event is to create dialogue
> between civilizations through poetry. I don't know
> what 'dialogue' means and I don't know what
> 'civilizations' means either. That is up to you to
> define. As is the case of your reading or program. It
> is YOUR event, not the United Nations or mine. I have
> stated in previous e-mails, that you can feature who
> ever you like or design the program to meet the
> interest of your community. I only ask that the
> program be courteous and open to many opinions and
> ideas. 'Poetry' is a very broad topic and can
> encompass many viewpoints, styles, languages,...so I
> have decided to work at the grass-roots level.
>
> There is no denying that the United Nations is a
> political institutions. But, I also believe the UN
> can unifying and be a catalyst for change. Sure, they
> have made many mistakes, but they have also done some
> remarkable things. I also believe, that the UN is the
> best organization to work through to develop such a
> program. There are so many writers, poets and artist
> working for the UN from so many different countries.
> It is a wonderful feeling to know that and to meet
> many of them.
>
> This program was in motion long before I met John or
> joined the list group. John suggested I should post
> the notice because he was working on a similar program
> and thought we should join forces. I agreed and have
> gotten very positive feed back from everyone. This is
> not just a list serve event. There are many
> organizations and poets involved.
>
> In regards to the corporate funding. Most of the
> money that will be raised will be from private donors
> and not from the UN. So, I need to seek support from
> companies (big and small) and from foundations. All
> the companies and foundations involved will NEVER have
> any input in to the design of your event/reading. You
> have full control.
>
> Lastly, I believe in John and know he will make a fine
> moderator for the literary panel. The job of the
> moderator is to guide the panel along and make
> everyone feel involved. In addition, he has an
> remarkable international perspective and most
> importantly--he is a good poet.
>
> I hope this answers all of your questions.
>
> Thank You,
> Ram Devineni
> Publisher
> Rattapallax Press
> http://www.rattapallax.com
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
> http://mail.yahoo.com/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:30:28 -0600 (MDT)
> From: Douglas Barbour <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Slow reply from Ron Silliman
> Message-Id: <l03102806b59c69340e8c@[129.128.238.51]>
>
> Rona asks (after another considered post, thankyouvery much):
> >
> >What are the politics of a complex thought?
>
> And, in to day's political contexts, can such even exist? Not, it seems in
> Canada, I can tell you...
>
> Douglas Barbour
> Department of English
> University of Alberta
> Edmonton Alberta Canada T6G 2E5
> (h) [780] 436 3320 (b) [780] 492 0521
> http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/dbhome.htm
>
> July, waxwings
> on the berries
> have dyed red
> the dead
> branch
> Lorine Niedecker
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:10:49 -0400 (EDT)
> From: [log in to unmask]
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Double Life of VERONIQUE
> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
>
> Sorry about the previous post's misrendering of the film title--and of
> yesterday's post in which the Stones's "Memo FROM Turner" was likewise
> misrendered. I have had another listen to that song, meanwhile, and feel
> reasonably sure that the following quotation from its lyrics is accurate.
> (Also recalled that "Memo From Turner" was written in 1968, politically
> enough, and for a film called _Performance_ that Mick Jagger co-produced
> and released in--I think--1970. I've never seen it myself, but assuming
> that it touches on the main theme of the song, I'd guess it to be about
> interestedness, and interests hidden within interests, pockets lined by
> deeper pockets.) Here are a few excerpts, with ellipses marking the
> jump cuts:
>
> Come now, gentlemen,
> I know there's some mistake
> How forgetful I'm becoming
> now you've fixed your business straight.
> ....
> I watched you at the coke convention
> Back in 1965....
> You're the gray gray man
> Whose daughter licks policemen's buttons clean
> You're the man who squats behind
> The man who works the salt machine.
> ....
> Be wary, please, my gentle friends
> Of all the skins you breed
> They have a nasty habit
> Of eating hands that bleed.
>
> So remember who you say you are
> And keep your noses clean
> Boys will be boys, they play with toys
> So be strong with your beast.
>
>
> If my quotes from and allusions to various films and pieces of music
> have registered an unease with the UN project, let me emphasize that
> an unease is all it is. I'm not questioning the integrity of anyone
> involved--least of all John Kinsella, whose integrity is beyond
> question, as far as I'm concerned, and whom I also respect enough to
> believe that he knows what he's doing when he says he's "working from
> within." I do not know Ram or anything about him beyond what he's told
> us himself, and although I appreciated his most recent post, it didn't
> tell me anything more than his previous list posts have. There are still
> unanswered questions that have not assuaged my unease, but neither JK
> nor Ram has any obligation to do so, after all.
>
> Regarding the UN in particular, it hardly qualifies as a "grassroots"
> entity and, among international organizations, the extent to which it's
> been a force for good is far less than Amnesty International, say, or--
> among examples of specifically writer-related organizations, PEN (it
> seems to me at least). Ram has said that he doesn't work for the UN, but
> I'd like to know what exactly his relationship to it is then and how
> exactly he's "working through" the UN to organize this event, which his
> most recent post described as both a "UN event" and not that at all,
> but rather "YOUR event."
>
> As far as the UN qua UN goes, it's too much of a muchness with
> Government relative to poetry, in my opinion, and without implying any
> lack of confidence in John Kinsella's manifestly authentic, activist
> anarchism (or in his ability to work effectively "from within" the
> belly of a beast like the UN), the one consistent feature of anarchism
> historically has, I believe, been its op-position-ality to Government.
> That's one way in which poetry has always seemed to me to be anarchist
> by definition, so I tend to feel the same unease about national poet
> laureates, for example, as I do about the UN project as a poetry and/or
> poetryetc project. Just on the level of language (which, of course, for
> poetry is THE level--poetry's Real, in a manner of speaking), I wonder
> about the disjunctive usages of a term like "peace-keeping force." The
> UN can use such a term unironically and unreflexively, using it as if
> it were simple and unproblematic. Could any poet or poem worthy of the
> name do so? I wonder.
>
> Candice
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:10:19 +0100
> From: "egg" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Food
> Message-Id: <01cb2f40$ec05b300$LocalHost@default>
>
> Food & poems are big on this list and in the press at the moment so here's
2
> guago ones of mine -
>
>
> concuss a flat fish
> take it off the gravel
> throw the motley slab
> on a wide black frying pan
> tear up nettles and chuck them on
> pour on cider in the summer
> or brandy in the winter
> thumb peppercorns into the slackening flesh
> now abbreviate the body
> render the edges
> wait until the eyes dilate
> gently roll round an unwashed turnip over the surface
> now turn the fish & flash fry that side
> and put it into the Dutch oven
> on low heat & bake it overnight
> next morning should find it charcoal black
> shred with forks, then mash
> thread a needle with catgut
> and treat the remains as a suture, bottle in stone jars
> before it cools - place
> under the caravan directly
> below the marriage bed and
> this will cure infidelity
>
>
> Kidney Suet Hawthorn Compress Combine
>
> Cut out any valves in the kidney and leave it near the horse overnight
> Fry red onions
> Get a guago to ameliorate some marijuana &
> Roll the smoke into the suet
> You must pick the hawthorns and blanch them in white vinegar during
sunshine
> Using the chipped edge of a crown derby plate shread any remaining
hawthorn,
> Pot the mulch and use it as dates
> Combine the ingredients and pack full a clean cold Dutch oven =
> You must get a ramble on now somehow
> At your 3rd stop throw the oven out of the window
> This will cure infidelity
>
> to read the whole of guago go to
> http://www.pehill.freeserve.co.uk/appleby/introduction.htm
>
> ph
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:40:48 -0700
> From: "Brink, Dean" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: "'Gudding '" <[log in to unmask]>,
> Cc: "[log in to unmask] '" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: RE: women, hilarity
> Message-Id: <4A6F76E6E2EAD311B2EC00A0C9D6494601014F7F@ABEL>
>
> Gabe and Catherine,
> your characterizations of humor shuttle between apology and analysis of
> power struggles underlying the destructive, shocking use of bawdy humor in
> verse. Here are some concrete examples of illicit senryu (satirical
haiku).
> One is from the 1850s, just after Perry had "opened Japan" --
>
> Visible to America between the rain,
> the Japanese pussy.
> Amerika ni amama miraruru Nihon bobo
>
> It rained after on the "black ships" visited Japan. It's a textbook
example
> of the use of sexual imagery of feminization and violation in (here
pseudo-)
> colonialist situations.
>
> Another senryu plays on the puns of the Satsuma region, which sounds like
> sweet potato and is populated by potatoes just as New Zealand is by kiwis.
> In comic reverence, on the occasion of a very famous former samurai's
heroic
> death in Japan's last civil war:
>
> A potato becomes a fart
> and Saigô becomes a star.
>
>
> Anyway, these are quite memorable examples for me, and I thought they'd
add
> another point of reference.
>
> dean
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> =========
>
> From: Gudding
>
> what I'm saying I guess is that I think dick jokes or fart jokes or
> cunt
> jokes -- even in their raunchiest
> form -- are very complex (especially socially) and do say something
> sufficiently grand -- or at least
> sufficiently destructive. Aren't taboo jokes meant in many ways to
> drive
> away a particular kind
> of audience -- or to mime the act of driving away an audience? My
> point?:
> though the packaging
> of even a minimalist taboo joke can be quite scant (say, providing a
> moniker to one's own genitalia,
> by which I mean referring to one's own pooty by a proper name, for
> instance), this act in itself
> is amazingly complicated and, well, profound. At least to someone born
> with
> my taste, which is,
> when it comes to jokes, maybe a bit, umm, forgiving.
>
> Anyway, thanks: I'm grateful for the sketch.
>
> Gabe
>
>
> At 11:48 AM 7/17/00 -0700, Catherine Daly wrote:
>
> >there are "levels" to jokes
> >there are "levels" to poetry
> >
> >A first level joke is generally a dick joke or a fart joke. It exists
> on
> >the surface, and is
> >(male) physical. These we put in movies for 14 year old boys. I say
> >"we", though only the
> >boys here are writing movies.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:20:11 GMT
> From: "sue Massey" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Moving On or A Code of Practice? A message frrom Rome.
> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
>
> Marco Valerio Marziale ( 40 d.C.? 104 d.C.)
>
> Book V
>
> XV
>
> Quintum nostrorum liber est, Auguste, iocorum
> Et queritur laesus carmine nemo meo,
> Gaudet honorato sed multus nominee lector,
> Cui victura meo munere fama datur.
> “Quid tamen haec prosunt quamvis venerantia multos?”
> Non prosint sane, me tamen ista iuvant.
>
>
>
> “….and yet it helps”
>
> Here is my fifth book of satire, O Augustus,
> And nobody ever complained about my jokes,
> Rather many were pleased to have been named
> Since they have been given an eternal fame.
> “What is the use of all this veneration?”
> Not that I get any real wealth, and yet it helps.
>
>
> Translated by Susannae
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:04:28 GMT
> From: "sue Massey" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: basia da nobis
> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
>
> Marco Valerio Marziale ( 40 d.C.? 104 d.C.)
> translated by Susanna
>
> Book VI
>
> XXIV
>
> Basia da nobis, Diadumene, pressa. "Quot" inquis?
> Oceani fluctus me numerare iubes
> Et maris Aegaei sparsas per lotora conchas
> Et quae Cecropio monte vagantur apes,
> Quaeque sonant pleno vocesque manusque theatro,
> Cum populus subiti Caesaris ora videt.
> Nolo quot arguto dedit exortata Catullo
> Lesbia: pauca cupit qui numerare potest.
>
>
> Infinite kisses
>
>
> Give me lots of kisses, Diadumene. "How many", you ask.
> The ocean's waves do you want me to count
> And the sea-shells scattered along the shores of the Egeo,
> And the bees roaming on the hills around Athen
> And the voices, the hands echoing in the crowded theatre
> When the folk finally see Caesar? I could not tell
> how many kisses Lesbia, exhorted, gave Catullo.
> Those who can count kisses, do not claim for many.
>
> Translated by Susannae (19 July 2000, Montecarlo)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "sue Massey" <[log in to unmask]>
> >Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: Moving On or A Code of Practice? A message frrom Rome.
> >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:20:11 GMT
> >
> >Marco Valerio Marziale ( 40 d.C.? 104 d.C.)
> >
> >Book V
> >
> >XV
> >
> >Quintum nostrorum liber est, Auguste, iocorum
> >Et queritur laesus carmine nemo meo,
> >Gaudet honorato sed multus nominee lector,
> >Cui victura meo munere fama datur.
> >"Quid tamen haec prosunt quamvis venerantia multos?"
> >Non prosint sane, me tamen ista iuvant.
> >
> >
> >
> >"..and yet it helps"
> >
> >Here is my fifth book of satire, O Augustus,
> >And nobody ever complained about my jokes,
> >Rather many were pleased to have been named
> >Since they have been given an eternal fame.
> >"What is the use of all this veneration?"
> >Not that I get any real wealth, and yet it helps.
> >
> >
> >Translated by Susannae
> >
> >
> >
> >________________________________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 16:09:35 -0700
> From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: basia da nobis
> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
>
> Kiss me and kiss me again, Diadumene. "How many times?"
> you ask. Would you wish me to count
> the ocean's waves, or number the shells
> on the Aegean's shore? the bees that wander the Attic hills
> or the cheers and applause of theater-goers
> when Caesar's enters? How many kisses did Catullus
> ask and receive from the lips of Lesbia?
> Whoever can count them has received too few.
>
> At 10:04 PM 7/20/2000 GMT, you wrote:
> >Marco Valerio Marziale ( 40 d.C.? 104 d.C.)
> >translated by Susanna
> >
> >Book VI
> >
> >XXIV
> >
> >Basia da nobis, Diadumene, pressa. "Quot" inquis?
> >Oceani fluctus me numerare iubes
> >Et maris Aegaei sparsas per lotora conchas
> >Et quae Cecropio monte vagantur apes,
> >Quaeque sonant pleno vocesque manusque theatro,
> >Cum populus subiti Caesaris ora videt.
> >Nolo quot arguto dedit exortata Catullo
> >Lesbia: pauca cupit qui numerare potest.
> >
> >
> >Infinite kisses
> >
> >
> >Give me lots of kisses, Diadumene. "How many", you ask.
> >The ocean's waves do you want me to count
> >And the sea-shells scattered along the shores of the Egeo,
> >And the bees roaming on the hills around Athen
> >And the voices, the hands echoing in the crowded theatre
> >When the folk finally see Caesar? I could not tell
> >how many kisses Lesbia, exhorted, gave Catullo.
> >Those who can count kisses, do not claim for many.
> >
> >Translated by Susannae (19 July 2000, Montecarlo)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: "sue Massey" <[log in to unmask]>
> >>Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
> >>To: [log in to unmask]
> >>Subject: Re: Moving On or A Code of Practice? A message frrom Rome.
> >>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:20:11 GMT
> >>
> >>Marco Valerio Marziale ( 40 d.C.? 104 d.C.)
> >>
> >>Book V
> >>
> >>XV
> >>
> >>Quintum nostrorum liber est, Auguste, iocorum
> >>Et queritur laesus carmine nemo meo,
> >>Gaudet honorato sed multus nominee lector,
> >>Cui victura meo munere fama datur.
> >>"Quid tamen haec prosunt quamvis venerantia multos?"
> >>Non prosint sane, me tamen ista iuvant.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>"..and yet it helps"
> >>
> >>Here is my fifth book of satire, O Augustus,
> >>And nobody ever complained about my jokes,
> >>Rather many were pleased to have been named
> >>Since they have been given an eternal fame.
> >>"What is the use of all this veneration?"
> >>Not that I get any real wealth, and yet it helps.
> >>
> >>
> >>Translated by Susannae
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>________________________________________________________________________
> >>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> >>
> >
> >________________________________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:37:58 +1000
> From: "Debbie Comerford" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: politics of complex thought
> Message-Id: <005201bff2a3$89d51f20$4317568b@ibmbna616k>
>
> doesn't poetry - written by those who align themselves with the left -
arise
> from the politics of complex thought?
> deb
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 3:11 PM
> Subject: Re: Slow reply from Ron Silliman
>
>
> > >What are the
> > >politics of a complex thought?
> >
> > Aha!
> >
> > A question I'd like very much to see discussed...
> >
> > And hoping someone else will start to loosen the knot, as I don't have
> > time to untangle those tentacular tendrils.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Alison
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 00 10:09:00 +1000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: politics of complex thought
> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
>
> Hi Deb
>
> >doesn't poetry - written by those who align themselves with the left -
arise
> >from the politics of complex thought?
>
> Well, those from the right can be complex also. Said describes Swift as
> a Tory anarchist... and I've seen some very simple-minded agitprop from
> the Left.
>
> Obviously the binaries of right and left don't work very well when
> applied to poetry. it shrugs them off. I often think in connection with
> this of Musil's insistence that he was an apolitical writer. From our
> perspective, he often looks political...but he thought of his apoliticism
> as a political stance which was inherently _literary_.
>
> Cheers
>
> Alison
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:48:59 +1000
> From: "Debbie Comerford" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: politics of complex thought
> Message-Id: <007701bff2ad$9f6dcb20$4317568b@ibmbna616k>
>
> Hi Alison,
>
> yes i agree, the dichotomy of 'the left versus the right' doesn't work
well
> when considering the politics of poetry. perhaps, a more appropriate way
of
> thinking about the 'politics of complex thought' in relation to poetry is
> through the Deleuzian concepts of the molecular and molar. Recently a
> number of reviews of Australia's 'emergent poetries' have condemned the
> poetry for being too "microcosmic" and thus finds 'new' oz poetry
> apolitical. The problem with such a perspectives is that these readings
do
> not seek the 'politics of complex thought' but the orthodox politics, the
> 'molar politics'. This produces a coming to poetry with what Luce
Irigaray
> describes as a ready-made grid, and in turn does not create the space for
> Adorno's 'immanent criticism'. However, most problematic is that in
> ignoring the politics of complex thought the circulation of a perception
is
> produced and without being questioned such a position becomes concretised.
>
> And so... I think that the thinking through and the articulation of a
> 'politics of complex thought' is particularly crucial at this particular
> moment in time/space. I don't claim to have the answers, but in creating
> these spaces for discussion 'poetryetc' can perhaps enact/jam the
> ready-made-grids.
>
> regards
> deb
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 10:09 AM
> Subject: Re: politics of complex thought
>
>
> > Hi Deb
> >
> > >doesn't poetry - written by those who align themselves with the left -
> arise
> > >from the politics of complex thought?
> >
> > Well, those from the right can be complex also. Said describes Swift as
> > a Tory anarchist... and I've seen some very simple-minded agitprop from
> > the Left.
> >
> > Obviously the binaries of right and left don't work very well when
> > applied to poetry. it shrugs them off. I often think in connection with
> > this of Musil's insistence that he was an apolitical writer. From our
> > perspective, he often looks political...but he thought of his
apoliticism
> > as a political stance which was inherently _literary_.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Alison
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:07:10 +1000
> From: "Hugh Tolhurst" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Fwd: from the editor, Overland 159 launch tonight
> Message-Id: <000901bff2af$ffff8e40$0111d7d2@computer>
>
> Friday night at trades hall Melbourne: 6.30; Rachel Berger launching; Pi
> o reading; live music; free beer and all welcome to celebrate the launch
> of overland 159.
>
> Ian Syson
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
|
