Eh, I'm a poet, Hugh, so are a lot of people here -- the poet of the
subject line is general. The specific or exclusive application to
Plath is your own project. I will try to figure out how I can be taken
as withdrawing something you thought I was saying. It's a hard one.
You are being tiresome but I will address your points. I have no idea
about the prescience of either Lowell or Plath in the cases of "Skunk
Hour" and "Daddy" but it is very boring to have the same old chestnuts
presented again and again as examplars of either poet's work.
I don't know the precise publishing history of "Daddy," though, as you
know, it was not published in book form until after Plath's death. As
the poem was written less than 4 months before her death, I think it is
inappropriate to overestimate the "publishing decisions" she had made.
I have no idea as to the logic of your comment about the paucity of
documents evidencing Nazi genocide.
There's no such thing as an "offensive document." There is no shortage of
people who will take offence -- usually in a pack, and usually to the
same hoary examples.
I couldn't care less if Plath's fellow students at Cambridge found her
pretentious. Pretentious buggers! How could you possibly be interested
in what so-and-so and so-and-so said? Haven't you got your own friends
to gossip about, if that's what interests you?
There is no poem titled "Three Carytids Without a Portico by Hugh Robus:
A Study in Sculptural Dimensions" in my copy of the Collected Poems.
That damned Ted Hughes: he says he's publishing everything "so that the
whole progress and achievement of this unusual poet will become
accessible to readers," but he leaves out this important poem. And
clearly it is unusual because Plath's poems generally have short titles
(in fact, there's a terrific long poem called "Three Women" in the
Collected Poems, but no "Three Carytids Without a Portico by Hugh Robus:
A Study in Sculptural Dimensions"). Please post this poem as I'd love to
see it.
Good luck with your historical and social contexts.
All the best,
Mairead
On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Hugh Tolhurst wrote:
> Mairead,
>
> This title we are writing under is yours, I think.
> That's why I thought you were saying there was
> causal connection between reviews of Plath and
> her depression. If you are now to be taken as
> withdrawing that, I'm glad of the shift.
>
> Jon talked about the problem many readers have
> with "Daddy" and in part I was trying to say that
> it's the same problem many have with "Skunk Hour".
> It's like a canny poet set up this debate forty years ago,
> knowing it's contentiousness could only fuel fame,
> debate and an industry.
>
> She might read "Daddy" hotly but we read something
> that has been meditated upon, about which publishing
> decisions have been made by the author. Also, with
> holocaust references, it's relevant that very few documents
> show the Nazi government authorising genocide...
> Where you say critics are:-
>
> citing a very small number of poems out of hundreds
>
> well, an offensive document is no less offensive for not
> being surrounded by many others.
>
> And ultimately, your not finding Plath pretentious, is less
> interesting a revelation than her contemporaries at Cambridge
> finding her to be pretentious. They are a primary source,
> of sorts. The women at Cambridge an important one. What is
> unpretentious about calling a poem, "Three Caryatids
> Without a Portico by Hugh Robus: A Study in Sculptural Dimensions".
>
> It's also a bit special to talk of 'creepy crowd mentality' when
> poets sympathetic to Plath's subject matter, but unsympathetic
> to moments of her handling of same subject matter, happen
> to find themselves in some agreement but not with Mairead.
>
> No, I don't shop at Plath/Lowell souvenir shops, I read poems
> in their historical and social contexts.
>
> yours impeccably
>
>
> Hugh Tolhurst
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Cc: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 10:07 PM
> Subject: Re: What might make a poet miserable
>
>
> > Specious assumptions of causality being something up with which you would
> > not put, it's just as well I'm not making them. The relentless sexism of
> > poetry reviewing during Plath's lifetime might well have driven me to
> > suicide but I'm sure it rolled off her like water of a duck's back,
> > hardboiled dame that she was, a true poet. Myself, a wuss, I am keenly
> > interested in, and indeed affected by, what people say and write about my
> > work.
> > All the best,
> > Mairead
> >
> > On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Hugh Tolhurst wrote:
> >
> > > Mairead,
> > >
> > > Margaret Scott goes on to say how surprised
> > > she was at the quality of Plath's posthumously
> > > published collections...
> > >
> > > My point is that if Plath had a problem with being
> > > published early by Faber and Faber, and getting
> > > the odd less than gushing endorsement by way of review,
> > > she was reacting preciously. I don't think she did really
> > > feel hardly done by, more than in passing.
> > >
> > > Most poets would be bloody pleased to be championed
> > > by Al Alvarez, an important critic of the day. The sexism
> > > in the first review you quote would annoy a young author
> > > but others copped worse. She wasn't that good yet.
> > >
> > > You were saying she had reason to be depressed, as if
> > > critical neglect hurt her towards suicide. This is something
> > > up with which I would not put. That sort of causality belongs
> > > in first year essays on Plath, where I'd excuse it.
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > Hugh Tolhurst
> > >
> > >
> > > PS And I've had far nastier pieces on me, not misogynist
> > > but demonising of mental illness. My good cheer is proof
> > > that poets survive reviewing bloodbaths.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Cc: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 8:33 AM
> > > Subject: What might make a poet miserable
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear Cassie,
> > > >
> > > > Plath was considered tiresome long before the 'cult' -- the first
> > > > reviews of her first book of poetry, even when favorable, attest to
> > > > her tiresomeness, on grounds of her femaleness mainly, but also, in
> > > > England, her Americanness. I have sometimes thought about I myself
> would
> > > > react to such reviews. What do you think?
> > > > (I must admit, though, I have always found Plath's poetry full of
> > > precision
> > > > and light).
> > > >
> > > > All the best,
> > > >
> > > > Mairead
> > > >
> > > > "As a rule the work of women poets is marked by intensity of feeling
> and
> > > > fineness of perception rather than by outstanding technical
> > > > accomplishment. Miss Sylvia Plath is, however, a young American
> poetess
> > > > whose work is most immediately noticeable for the virtuoso qualities
> of
> > > > its style."
> > > > Bernard Bergonzi, Manchester Guardian, 1960.
> > > >
> > > > "Sylvia Plath's The Colossus needs none of the usual throat-clearing
> > > > qualifications, to wit: 'impressive, considering, of course, it is a
> > > > *first* volume by a *young* (excuse me) *American* poetess.' Miss
> Plath
> > > > neither asks excuses for her work nor offers them. She steers clear
> of
> > > > feminine charm, deliciousness, gentility, supersensitivity and the act
> of
> > > > being a poetess. She simply writes good poetry."
> > > > A. Alvarez, The Observer, 1960.
> > > >
> > > > "Miss Plath is a young American poet who was at Cambridge and is
> married
> > > > to a Yorkshireman ... "If Miss Plath can let things slip a bit without
> > > > gushing her next book may remove all one's doubts."
> > > > Roy Fuller, London Magazine, 1961.
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 [log in to unmask] wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dear Joanne,
> > > > >
> > > > > That's a difficult question. The 'cult' of Sylvia Plath probably
> > > contributes
> > > > > to her percieved tiresome aspect. yet perhaps it's unfair that she's
> so
> > > > > commonly seen as purely internal and insular- most of us would seem
> that
> > > way
> > > > > if the diaries of our youth were widely published.
> > > > >
> > > > > Poetry needs shade as well as light to work, it's almost a
> prerequisite,
> > > so
> > > > > I guess what we're talking about is attitude, style and tone rather
> than
> > > > > subject matter.
> > > > >
> > > > > Personally, having just read Louise Gluck's 'The Wild Iris', I am
> > > staggered
> > > > > by her deftness with dark subjects. Here's a quote from Helen
> Vendler
> > > from
> > > > > the back cover:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Her poems... have achieved the unusual distinction of being neither
> > > > > "confessional" nor "intellectual" in the usual senses of this word,
> > > which
> > > > > are often thought to represent two camps in the life of
> poetry...What a
> > > > > strange book 'The Wild Iris' is...written in the language of
> > > flowers...It
> > > > > wagers everything on the poetic energy remaining in the old
> troubadour
> > > image
> > > > > of the spring, the Biblical lilies of the field, natural
> resurrection."
> > > > >
> > > > > What is a personal hell? Is it so different from an impersonal one?
> Does
> > > it
> > > > > really matter whether we're talking about death and resurrection in
> a
> > > > > garden, or in Russia (as in Akhmatova's 'Requiem' Cycle) or in
> Sylvia's
> > > > > mind? I think it comes down to one of the best phrases I picked up
> in
> > > high
> > > > > school: it's not what you say but how you say it.
> > > > >
> > > > > How very intellectual of me! But as readers we have interpretitive
> > > choices
> > > > > too: I tentatively feel that three's much existentialism in Plath's
> > > work,
> > > > > along with all the nihilism.
> > > > >
> > > > > But if it was a choice between a night out with Anna and Louise, and
> one
> > > > > with Sylvia, I'm pretty sure which one I'd take.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Cassie
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 08:05:28 -0700, [log in to unmask] wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > which brings me to a question I believe passed by this list a
> short
> > > time
> > > > > > ago, but I am afraid I wasn't paying attention. What is the
> consensus
> > > of
> > > > > > poets who think writing poetry of a personal hell is self
> indulgent
> > > > > drivel?
> > > > > > I for one am moved and enjoy the honest emotions that can come
> from
> > > such
> > > > > > self revealing work. What do others say? Humm? just wondering,
> Joanne
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > > Cc: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 5:57 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Plath as a miserable, self-obsessed b*****r
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dear Ally and Susanne,
> > > > > > > I have to disagree with this assessment of Plath, who was fully
> > > > > occupied
> > > > > > > most of the time and had a clear and precise eye: her poems
> attest
> > > to
> > > > > her
> > > > > > > intense interest in things outside herself -- for me they often
> > > have
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > attention and accuracy of Hopkins' letters.
> > > > > > > Mairead
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, 4 Jul 2000, Ally Kerr wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dear Susanne,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Jane Austen, in Persuasion, suggests that folk who are
> depressed
> > > > > should
> > > > > > avoid reading poetry.... She's probably got a point: so many
> poets
> > > are
> > > > > > miserable self-obsessed b****rs like Plath! On the other hand,
> when
> > > us
> > > > > > students were depressed in the 60s, we used to listen to a
> Leonard
> > > Cohen
> > > > > LP
> > > > > > and then we knew there was someone who felt worse than we did.
> > > Cheered
> > > > > us
> > > > > > up no end. The Rev Sydney Smith said read humour and get out a
> lot.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cheers
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ally Kerr
> > > > > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Sent by Sofcom Mail - The world's coolest and safest FREE
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> > > > > service.
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> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________________
> > > > > Say Bye to Slow Internet!
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
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