In his interesting reply to B Boock, J Moulden writes,

  I'm interested in popular song-books like the one you mention 
  [Francis & Day's Camp-Fire & Fire-Side Song Book] because my 
  interest is as much in people singing as in the songs 
  they sing. [...] The comment about [There's a whole in the
  bucket] not being a ballad was [...] because I find discussion 
  of distinctions about songs pointless when I am worried about 
  the survival of people's habit of singing.

I agree, and I was glad to know that I knew the "Dear Liza" ballad! (I've
got a recording, and always thought the man said, "There's a whole in my
POCKET"...). Yes, it can go on and on for hours. It probably did start off
as a WORK SONG/ballad, mind!

Anyway, the point I would like to make is more a specification about "these
[type of] song books". I understand Moulden and Boock are referring to the
so-called genre of COMMUNITY SINGING (SINGALONG? SINGSONG?) which I actually
thought was an Americanism. Did not know the title of this type of singing
was so common in England. What sense of "community" is being used there?
Church community, rural community, or JUST community. I ask because I'm in
Buenos Aires, where English ballads belong to a very specific community!

Now, are ballads "proper" for community singing?

My first approach to ballads was with Victorian pseudo ballads, of the
military type, and I work with the local Anglo-Argentine community, and I
play the piano and organise singalongs. Of course, with those ballads you
cannot have community singing. At most, they will join in the refrain (if
they know it, or better if you provide nice songbooks with BIG lyrics, and
they are not too alcoholised).

With ballads proper, I think there is still less of a point of calling them
COMMUNITY SINGING, no? 

I mean, the ballad is typically a narrative song to be sung a capella by a
single singer, unaccompanied. The fact whether the origin "ballare" is that
it was used for dancing is dubious. At least I cannot *myself* dance (or
make my friends dance) to Barbara Allen, however jazzy I play it...

Or consider Willikins and his Dinah, a so-called musichall song which has
more of a ballad feel to it. The refrain is so silly, that you cannot get
people even joining in such a silly refrain, "Singing turali turali turalira"...

Community singing I would restrict to *other* type of songs, not to folk
songs or ballads, but to popular songs. 

When I did The Beggar's Opera, based on ballads of the day, I couldn't have
the audience joining in ANY Of the 69 ballads cited by Gay. At least they
could swing along the tune of "Greensleeves" which Gay uses in the final phase.

If we are talking of community singing today, they would have to be XXth
century songs, I would guess (especially wartime songs. Great War, WWII). Or
ever familiar folksongs of the narrative type a la "The foggy foggy dew", or
"Early one morning", or what???

Of course, I am writing this from Buenos Aires. Things may well be different
where J Moulden is located, and btw, where is that, if I may be curious?

As for the local Spanish balladry, it is also intended for the solo singer,
and hardly community singing by any standard (and you know how melancholy
the gaucho can get once he gets hold of his guitar...).

Best,

J L Speranza, Esq
Buenos Aires, Argentina.
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