Thanks Helen for that clarification (I see subject codes and I 
automatically think of HESA!). However, as you say, there is 
surely no reason why the same disaggregation of data cannot be 
provided to Mayfield University Consultants by UCAS - clearly 
UCAS engage in some sort of analysis on those lines when they 
produce the summary subject tables in the Annual Report. As Gary 
Smith from UCL pointed out, failure to recognise joint degrees 
will seriously disadvantage institutions where they make up a 
substantial, if not major, part of their UG provision (as is the 
case at UNL).

I am copying Dr Kingston and Andrew Hindmarsh into the full set 
of this particular correspondence strand, as well as hesa-pr 
(where the invitation to consult was first posted). Like Gary 
Smith, whilst I commend Mayfield University Consultants' 
invitation for institutions to register specific requests for 
changes, I think that this issue is too broad to be dealt with in 
that way (as Helen indicates!) and a wider debate should be 
encouraged.

Judy

On Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:19:53 +0000 Helen Rollett 
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Judy and colleagues
> 
> They appear to be using UCAS data for A level points, but the 
> same could apply to their request to them except that I have 
> never seen any report from UCAS that deals in 'assigned' half 
> numbers of students on joint coded courses.  I emailed Dr 
> Kingston yesterday to ask if they will accept specific 
> combination codes for their consultation subject categories but 
> have not had a reply yet (I don't look forward to preparing 
such > lists).
> > Helen
> > Date sent:      	Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:53:50 +0000 (GMT)
> Send reply to:  	[log in to unmask] > Priority:       	
NORMAL > Subject:        	Re: The Times Good University 
Guide 2002 > From:           	Judy Evans <[log in to unmask]>
> To:             	[log in to unmask] > Copies 
to: Gary Smith <[log in to unmask]> > 
> > What I fail to understand is, if Mayfield Consultants are 
using > > HESA data to derive their subject tables, why can't 
HESA  > > provide them with the joint data anyway? I appreciate 
that > > Y-coded joint courses would be problematic but for those 
coded, > > eg HH56, why can't HESA disaggregate it for them? Or 
am I > missing > something here?!
> > > Judy > > > ----------------------
> > Judy Evans > Head of Management Information > > University of 
North London > 166-220 Holloway Road > > London N7 8DB > 
> > tel : 020 7753 5146 > fax : 020 7753 5120 > > > email : 
[log in to unmask] > > 
> > 
> H Rollett > Planning
> Kingston University > +020 8547 8245
On Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:00:06 +0000 Gary Smith <[log in to unmask]> 
wrote:

> * Apologies for any cross-posting *
> 
> Dear Colleagues
> 
> Some of you may be interested in the E-mail (copied below) which 
> went to members of the hesa-pr mailbase (and was later copied to 
> the admin-cvcpr mailbase), concerning how the Times propose to 
> prepare data for their University Guide 2002.
> 
> My main concern is that the exclusion of all joint honours 
> students from the calculations will result in many subject areas 
> being seriously mis-represented.  I have written to Drs. 
> Hindmarsh and Kingston to ask why they joint students cannot be 
> included in the figures (pro-rata across the two subject areas), 
> and I found their reply that joints 'have very small intakes' 
> unpersuasive - (Joint degrees are about 10% of our UG provision, 
> and make up the major part of provision in several subject 
> areas). 
> 
> While I appreciate the TGUG's consulting with the sector this 
> way, I suspect that the mechanism of asking institutions to 
> register requests for specific changes to data through the 
> 'Mayfield' Web-site is too time consuming for most colleagues.  
> However, Drs. Hindmarsh and Kingston have been helpful in 
> explaning their position and they may be willing to receive 
> further comments from institutions on this matter.
> 
> Best Wishes 
> 
>   Gary Smith
>   Deputy Director, Management Information and Services
>   Registrar's Division, UCL
>   Gower Street, London, WC1E 6BT
>   E-mail: [log in to unmask]
>   Tel: external (020) 7679 2044; internal 2044 
> 
> *reproduced E-mail below:
> >
> >Subject: The Times Good University Guide, 2002
> >Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 08:41:55 +0000
> >From: Andrew Hindmarsh <[log in to unmask]>
> >To: hesa-pr <[log in to unmask]>
> > 
> > Dear Colleague
> > 
> > We are writing to ask once again for your assistance with one 
> aspect of the construction of the next edition of The Times Good 
> University Guide.  As with the similar consultation last year, 
> this concerns the definitions of the subjects used in the 
> compilation of the Subject Tables.  Mayfield University 
> Consultants, which compiles the Subject Tables for The Times, is 
> anxious to ensure that, within the limits of the methodology, the 
> tables are as accurate and fair as possible.  It is necessary to 
> consult again this year because a number of new Subject Tables 
> will be prepared for the 2002 edition. > 
> > Three elements make up each Subject Table: teaching quality, 
> research assessment and average A level score.  In most cases it 
> is clear which subject reviews, units of assessment and subject 
> codes should be used to compile the table.  For example, in the 
> Chemistry table, the following definitions are used: > 
> > Subject Review                          Chemistry > RAE Unit of 
> Assessment                  Chemistry > Subject Codes for average 
> A level score F1 > 
> > Thus the outcome of the Chemistry Subject Review, the Chemistry 
> RAE result and the average A level score for courses coded F1 are 
> used to compile the Chemistry Subject Table. > 
> > However, in some subject areas there is the possibility that 
> the definitions chosen may not adequately reflect the provision 
> at all universities.  This may arise in several circumstances, 
> such as: > 
> > 7 an RAE submission has been made, for perfectly good reasons, 
> in a Unit of Assessment different from that at the majority of 
> other universities.  For example, if a university submitted its 
> Sociology research in Unit of Assessment 40, Social Policy & 
> Administration, this would be recorded as a missing value in the 
> Sociology table.  If the research rating achieved by that 
> research was high, the university would be disadvantaged in the 
> Sociology table > 
> > 7 the UCAS Course Code for an undergraduate course is out of 
> line with those used at other universities or only Dual Honours 
> courses are offered.  For example,  if Electronic Engineering is 
> only offered as a course coded HH56 this would be recorded as a 
> missing value in the Electronic Engineering table which uses 
> courses coded H5 and H6 only > 
> > 7 there is not a clear match between the subjects used for 
> Subject Reviews in England with the similar assessments of 
> teaching quality in Scotland or Wales > 
> > If you wish to take part in this consultation, all the details 
> are available at www.mayfield-uc.org.uk (follow the Consultations 
> link).  In particular, the Table of Definitions gives the 
> definitions used for all the subject tables that will appear in 
> the next edition of the Guide.  If you believe that the use of 
> any of these definitions would give a misleading impression of 
> the activity in any subject at your university we would be 
> grateful if you would let us know by completing the Reply Form 
> and returning it to us.  We will need brief details of: > 
> > 1 The subject table where the definitions would be misleading > 
> 2 A proposed alternative (eg use Research Unit of Assessment X 
> instead of Y, or subject code Z6 instead of Z8) > 3 A brief 
> justification for the proposed alternative (eg research in this 
> subject submitted in Unit of Assessment X) > 
> > Please return the Reply Form to Dr B M Kingston, Mayfield 
> University Consultants, 9 Burnt Stones Close, Sandygate, 
> Sheffield, S10 ITS ([log in to unmask]) by 1 December 
> 2000 if you would like your comments to be taken into account for 
> the next edition of the Guide. > 
> > Thank you for your assistance > 
> > Yours sincerely > 
> > > Andrew Hindmarsh
> > Bernard Kingston > Mayfield University Consultants
> > ........................................................... > 
> > Dr Andrew Hindmarsh > Planning Officer
> > Policy & Planning Unit > The University of Nottingham
> > University Park > Nottingham  NG7 2RD
> > > Tel: 0115 951 5764
> > Fax: 0115 951 5202

----------------------
Judy Evans
Head of Management Information
University of North London
166-220 Holloway Road
London N7 8DB

tel : 020 7753 5146
fax : 020 7753 5120

email : [log in to unmask]



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